Playoff Baseball

[jimsumner]

Yes, the Yankees have more money to spend.

But if they bought this year's title, what happened to last year, when they spent just as much money.

Let's look at the big additions.

Wang began the 2008 season as the ace. Mussina ended the season as the ace. Mussina retired, Wang may never pitch again at a high level. The Yankees signed two high-profile pitchers to replace them.

Jason Giambi was a free-agent after 2008. The Yankees let him walk and replaced him with Teixiera.

Bobby Abreu was a free-agent after 2008. The Yankees let him walk and replaced him with Swisher.

When the other contenders were making moves, the Yanks held pat and kept their prospects. Unless you think Jerry Hairston and Eric Hinske were pick-ups made possible by the big payroll.

So, yes the spent big bucks but they spent them wisely, which hasn't always been the case. Yes, Kei Ogawa, I'm talking to you. So give Cashman some credit for making some pretty good moves.

[dukefanbrooklyn]

What you said is exactly correct but the fact is that bitter fnas will never except that as the truth, the need something to complain about.

[YourLandlord]

Originally Posted by dukefanbrooklyn

What you said is exactly correct but the fact is that bitter fnas will never except that as the truth, the need something to complain about.

LOL.

Last winter, all 30 Major League Baseball teams spent $900 Million on free agents.

Last winter, one team spent $450 Million on free agents.


Rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for Katrina instead of New Orleans.

The Yankees are good for baseball, for a number of reasons. But fans of the team are amusing in their ignorance of the incredible advantage the Yankees have.

[JasonEvans]

It sounds to me like the Yankees had an absurdly high payroll last year and when the absurdly high-priced players on that team were let go they replaced them with other absurdly high-priced players. If that is supposed to be some example of payroll fairness or prudence, I am missing it.

Bottom line-- the Yankees have a lot, lot more money to spend than other teams. As a result, the Yankees have a lot, lot more highly-priced (and generally more established/better) players than other teams. There is no other professional sport I follow that functions like this and there is little question it creates a competitive imbalance.

I am not a Yankee hater. I really don't care about them one way or another. Props to them for winning the title, something which is tough to do even with their payroll advantage. Still, to say that rival fans are just grumbling is ignoring the fact that the thing they are grumbling about is something that is actually unfair about baseball.

--Jason "I think many baseball owners really don't care that much about winning" Evans

[YourLandlord]

Originally Posted by JasonEvans

--Jason "I think many baseball owners really don't care that much about winning" Evans

This is true.

But fundamentally, do they have any responsibility to? They purchased a team, and not to lose money. If they can continue to make money and field a mediocre team (ignoring any long-term effects on attendance), do they have a responsibility to "try"? After all, it's a business -- they're involved to turn a profit. In this sense, you must ignore any moral arguments such as "they owe it to the fans," etc. You assume they realize if they are continually in last place, attendance will suffer, and they will lose money. But, the Pirates have missed the playoffs (or is it have a losing record?) for 17 years -- yet they still draw fans.

Besides, if everyone "tries", salaries will only continue to increase -- which will even more disadvantage the small-market teams. The fewer teams that are involved in the outrageous free-agent bidding, the lower the overall salaries -- meaning the smaller teams have a chance to compete.

It's a complicated question. Is MLB overlooking its longterm health, as more and more teams go a decade or more without competing -- thus losing a generation of fans?

Is the NFL's success due to the ability for a team to move from last place to first place in a few years? (This seems to happen often, thus creating a steady base of fans?)

[dukefanbrooklyn]

It may be a competitive imbalance but baseball in fact has the most amount of different teams winning the World series this decade.

"Rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for Katrina instead of New Orleans."

This has to be the dumbest thing i've ever read on this board.

[dukebluelemur]

My first thought on a comparison to major league baseball? College sports. Now clearly the money is flowing in different directions, but generally speaking, success brings money, which brings expensive coaches, tv deals, sponsorships, and great facilities... which in turn bring in more good players. The teams that are good are, for the most part, those that have been good, those that have the money.

Sure there are exceptions... money and history don't always breed continued success, see FSU Football (and the last few Yankees teams), and sometimes lightning strikes (the yearly talk of slippers/last year's Rays).

But lets be honest, that's not the general trend. College sports are just as bad an example of the haves versus have-nots. Why is duke improving in football? Because we finally committed to making the investment in infrastructure and coaching that we have to compete.

I'm not defending the Yankee's spending habits, they are definitely an extreme example... but lets be honest, its not an isolated situation.

[YourLandlord]

Originally Posted by dukefanbrooklyn

It may be a competitive imbalance but baseball in fact has the most amount of different teams winning the World series this decade.

When the subject is countable, the correct word is number, not amount. Just FYI.

I agree that baseball is surprisingly competitive when you examine the number of teams that win the World Series. But the correlation between team payroll and teams that make the playoffs is undeniable. And I say this as a Red Sox fan. Again -- any denial of this fact is base ignorance.

[dukefanbrooklyn]

If the Yankees did not use all there money and always lost, they would be the dumbest and the worst franchise ever in any sport. So blame a team for using their advantages huh?

[jimsumner]

"But fans of the team are amusing in their ignorance of the incredible advantage the Yankees have. "

And opponents of the team are amusing in their inability to distinguish between spending money and spending money wisely.

[dukefanbrooklyn]

Originally Posted by YourLandlord

When the subject is countable, the correct word is number, not amount. Just FYI.

I agree that baseball is surprisingly competitive when you examine the number of teams that win the World Series. But the correlation between team payroll and teams that make the playoffs is undeniable. And I say this as a Red Sox fan. Again -- any denial of this fact is base ignorance.

HAHAHA your a red sux fan, ok i get it now. No need for me to carry on this conversation.

[YourLandlord]

Originally Posted by dukefanbrooklyn

If the Yankees did not use all there money and always lost, they would be the dumbest and the worst franchise ever in any sport. So blame a team for using their advantages huh?

Did I lay blame anywhere? I previously stated the Yankees are good for baseball. Failing to acknowledge the competitive imbalance -- which you stated yourself -- is odd.

Originally Posted by dukefanbrooklyn

HAHAHA your a red sux fan, ok i get it now. No need for me to carry on this conversation.

If anything were to perpetuate the stereotype of a Yankees fan...

Originally Posted by jimsumner

"But fans of the team are amusing in their ignorance of the incredible advantage the Yankees have. "

And opponents of the team are amusing in their inability to distinguish between spending money and spending money wisely.

Where did I state the Yankees are not spending money wisely? Signing Sabathia and Teixeira was the smartest thing they've done in years.

I wish the Red Sox could have signed Teixeria, but it was simply not possible as he wanted to go to NY (or more accurately, his wife wanted him to go to NY), and the Yankees could always top any Red Sox offer.

Your posts here have shown you're a knowledgeable Yankees fan. Which is rare and respected! Given they've had the highest salary in baseball for years now, and Yankees fans themselves have been calling for Cashman's head over the last five years, I think you would realize there has been significant un-wisely spent Yankees money in recent years. [But, nowhere did I claim this -- you brought it up.]

CC and Teix were wise purchases.

[InSpades]

Originally Posted by YourLandlord

Your posts here have shown you're a knowledgeable Yankees fan. Which is rare and respected! Given they've had the highest salary in baseball for years now, and Yankees fans themselves have been calling for Cashman's head over the last five years, I think you would realize there has been significant un-wisely spent Yankees money in recent years. [But, nowhere did I claim this -- you brought it up.]

CC and Teix were wise purchases.

Have people really been calling for Cashman's head? Why? If anything Cashman is the voice of reason in the Yankees management. He's the one who preaches developing prospects from within and not trading away the farm for the next big thing. It's hard to know who's fault which signing was but not all of it was Cashman. Kei Igawa? Carl Pavano? Jason Giambi? These were all pretty horrible signings but I don't blame them on Cashman.

The best thing the Yankees have done in recent years is *not* trade for Johan Santana. In years past they would have gladly gave up Hughes + 2-3 other prospects for a guy like Santana when it is ridiculous stupid. Why trade for Santana and pay him $20M when you can just sign Sabathia and pay him $20M?

[YourLandlord]

Originally Posted by InSpades

Have people really been calling for Cashman's head? Why? If anything Cashman is the voice of reason in the Yankees management. He's the one who preaches developing prospects from within and not trading away the farm for the next big thing. It's hard to know who's fault which signing was but not all of it was Cashman. Kei Igawa? Carl Pavano? Jason Giambi? These were all pretty horrible signings but I don't blame them on Cashman.

I was going to post specific links, but click through the first few pages and you'll get a sense for the sentiment that was out there.

google search for "fire brian cashman":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...n&start=0&sa=N

Originally Posted by InSpades

The best thing the Yankees have done in recent years is *not* trade for Johan Santana. In years past they would have gladly gave up Hughes + 2-3 other prospects for a guy like Santana when it is ridiculous stupid. Why trade for Santana and pay him $20M when you can just sign Sabathia and pay him $20M?

While I understand what you're saying, I'm not sure your example of Hughes is well served. Hughes was (is?) supposed to be a stud starter -- see his role in 2007 and 2008. So was Joba. Now they are both relievers. Will the Yankees convert them back to starters? Time will tell. But their reputation was as potential #1/2 starters -- their value as relievers is far lower.

[InSpades]

Originally Posted by YourLandlord

I was going to post specific links, but click through the first few pages and you'll get a sense for the sentiment that was out there.

google search for "fire brian cashman":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...n&start=0&sa=N



While I understand what you're saying, I'm not sure your example of Hughes is well served. Hughes was (is?) supposed to be a stud starter -- see his role in 2007 and 2008. So was Joba. Now they are both relievers. Will the Yankees convert them back to starters? Time will tell. But their reputation was as potential #1/2 starters -- their value as relievers is far lower.

You can find a link to calls for the firing of *any* manager or GM in the NY area. Especially one that has been around for as long as Cashman. I don't think it was a general sentiment among Yankee fans at all (and I am one, so I should know).

My point is that if the Yankees had traded for Santana then they wouldn't have Hughes or Sabathia. Say what you want about Hughes, he was arguably the best middle reliever in baseball this year. He also may become a solid starter in the future (he may not, but that's how these things go). It wasn't just Hughes either, the Yankees would have had to give up atleast 1 more top prospect (possibly Austin Jackson, supposedly the future in centerfield). Would the Yankees rather have Hughes + Sabathia or Santana? I think the choice is pretty obvious. It's just not worth trading multiple top prospects for a guy who is going to demand market rate salary.

[YourLandlord]

d

Originally Posted by InSpades

You can find a link to calls for the firing of *any* manager or GM in the NY area. Especially one that has been around for as long as Cashman. I don't think it was a general sentiment among Yankee fans at all (and I am one, so I should know).

The popular Yankees websites/message boards all did not want Cashman's contract renewed. In fact, popular baseball opinion at the time is that it would not be renewed -- people were surprised that the relationship was renewed. You'll note there was a NY Times article about Cashman being on thin ice -- and the Times usually only writes about such topics when they become quite popular.

Originally Posted by InSpades

My point is that if the Yankees had traded for Santana then they wouldn't have Hughes or Sabathia. Say what you want about Hughes, he was arguably the best middle reliever in baseball this year. He also may become a solid starter in the future (he may not, but that's how these things go). It wasn't just Hughes either, the Yankees would have had to give up atleast 1 more top prospect (possibly Austin Jackson, supposedly the future in centerfield). Would the Yankees rather have Hughes + Sabathia or Santana? I think the choice is pretty obvious. It's just not worth trading multiple top prospects for a guy who is going to demand market rate salary.

They are different situations, as they occurred at different times. They could have had Santana a few years ago. Sabathia was for this season.

And I completely disagree with the bolded part. If you are getting a bona fide major league all-star at market rate salary, in exchange for prospects -- that is a great deal. True free-agents are becoming harder to come by due to revenue sharing (more mid-market teams are locking up premier talent).

They are called prospects for a reason -- TINSTAAP.

[InSpades]

Originally Posted by YourLandlord

d

The popular Yankees websites/message boards all did not want Cashman's contract renewed. In fact, popular baseball opinion at the time is that it would not be renewed -- people were surprised that the relationship was renewed. You'll note there was a NY Times article about Cashman being on thin ice -- and the Times usually only writes about such topics when they become quite popular.



They are different situations, as they occurred at different times. They could have had Santana a few years ago. Sabathia was for this season.

And I completely disagree with the bolded part. If you are getting a bona fide major league all-star at market rate salary, in exchange for prospects -- that is a great deal. True free-agents are becoming harder to come by due to revenue sharing (more mid-market teams are locking up premier talent).

They are called prospects for a reason -- TINSTAAP.

As I said, you can find people who want to fire *any* NY GM/coach/manager. I actually am a Yankee fan and do read Yankee forums/websites. Most Yankee fans think Cashman has done a good job throughout his time with the Yankees.

Santana was traded 2 years ago. CC was a free agent 1 year ago. How different were those times? They are called prospects because they could become good (or great) players. Guys like Santana and Sabathia were at one time prospects. I think the Mets trade for Santana was fine, they didn't give up nearly as much as the Yankees were being asked to give up. I just think you are much better off trading for a guy like Cliff Lee who you can keep for another year at a reasonable salary instead of trading for a guy who's going to immediately demand $20M per year. The most valuable guys in baseball are guys who are underpaid for what they produce (a guy like Lincecum who should probably be making $15+m and is making less than $1M).

[SoCalDukeFan]

it is good for baseball to have a strong Yankee team, it is not good for baseball to have so many weak teams and so many teams whose season is over by the 4th of July.

The whole structure stinks. I am not a Yankee hater and I applaud them for using the money to win. The structure needs to be changed.

SoCal

[ncexnyc]

Without a doubt this championship buys Brian Cashman another couple of years as the GM of the Yankees.

There definitely were calls for Cashman's head after last years failure to make the playoffs. Many of the headhunters pointed to his failure to make the Santana trade and the fact that Santana had a very impressive 2008 season for the Mets, while his trio of young guns, Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy were busts.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees took a play out of the Saux playbook and made low ball offers to both Damon and Matsui, hoping they turn them down so they could then go after Bay or Holliday.

If Andy decides to return, I don't see them chasing after Lachey, but if Andy says he's through, then I believe they will definitely be in the hunt. There would be way to many question marks with a rotation of C.C., A.J., Wang, Hughes, Kennedy and/or Chamberlain.

Since the next free agent class is projected to contain the likes of Mauer, Lee, and Halladay. The Yankees could gamble and stand pat and then pull off another huge off season lke they did this year.

[Olympic Fan]

It's going to be interesting to see how the Yankees react in this year's free agent market. Of course, it's going to be interesting to see how the Red Sox react.

Actually, Boston (the second biggest spender in baseball) might have the tougher choices with Bay and Martinez on the block. I think with Varitek clearly on the downhill side of his career, they have to make a strong bid to keep Martinez at catcher.

Bay is a little different. Did they just deal for Hermedia as a fourth outfielder or is he insurance in case they can't get Bay. I'm not an expert on the Boston farm system, but I have read that they have a couple of quality OF prospects coming and they may not want to make a long-term offer to Bay.

In addition to all that, they have the issue of Tim Wakefield, probably the most durable starter in this decade -- until he started to have back problems this year. He's old, but a lot of old knuckleballers are effective.

As for the Yankees, the obvious tough choices are Damon and Matsui. Both are aging, but clearly the Yanks are not World Champs this year without their contributions. Matsui is a problem because he's strictly a DH and I know the Yankees want to open up more DH possibilities for Posada, so he can catch less.

On the pitching front, I strongly suspect the Yankees will work out something to re-sign Andy Pettite. But that gives them just three solid starters (with CC and Burnett). Do you go out and sign a starter (Lachey?) or do you count on finding another couple of starters out of Kennedy, Gaudin, Hughes and/or Chamberlain??? The bad news is that Chien-Ming Wang is facing a long rehab -- the best case scenario for him is that he's ready to pitch again mid-season 2010. The worst case ... he never pitches again.

One thing I have read is that the Yankees are the favorite to sign Cuban defector Aroldis Chapman. Last spring in the World Classic, he blew away major league hitters with a 100 mph fastball. He's a 6-foot-4 lefty who is reported to be 21 years old. Not sure I believe that age, but even if he's 24 or 25, he looks like the best Cuban defector since El Duque.

I also read a quote from one of the Steinbrenner brats saying that the Yankees won't be spending a lot in free agency. I'll believe that when I see it.

But I will be interested to see their approach -- one source I saw suggested that the Yankees have more prospects in their minor league system than anybody -- but most of them are at a lower level (guys like Jesus Montero, a 19-year-old catcher with a 900-plus OPS at AA last year and young arms like Manuel Banuelo and Arodys Vizcaino). About the only guy ready to come up now is OF Austin Jackson, a former Georgia Tech basketball recruit, who looks like the second coming of Kenny Lofton (not much power, but great speed and a decent OBP).

Normally, I'd expect to see the Yankees ignore their young, home-grown prospects and hit the free agent market hard -- yeah, Holliday (or Bay) in the outfield, a pitcher such as Lachey and maybe Chapman as a third big purchase.

But I think Jim makes a good point about what happened this year at the trade deadline. The Phillies scramble for Halliday and settle for Cliff Lee. The White Sox deal for Jake Peevy. The Dodgers trade for Matt Holliday. The Red Sox grab Martinez and Wagner.

Yet, the Yankees, normally the team most likely to spend big with a pennant in site, mere make a couple of minor moves, picking up Hairston and Hinske, a couple of backups.

I don't know, my understanding is that with Steinbrenner ill, Cashman -- for the first time in years -- is now making the baseball decisions. Over the last year, whoever has made those decisions has mostly made good decisions.

I hope it continues.