Nolan Smith out for first 2 regular season games

[MChambers]

Originally Posted by jimsumner

"I agree with many above in that this will actually help the team. There will absolutely be times when Nolan is sick, injured, or in foul trouble, and we will already be prepared when this happens."

I understand the sentiment. This is a way to make the proverbial lemonade out of the proverbial lemons. Coaches use this all the time. Beats saying "this sucks. We might as well shut it down for awhile."

But let's examine this logically. If it's really going to help the team, why wait for a suspension? Why not hold out Nolan for a game or two anyway?

There may be a time when Singler is sick, injured or in foul trouble. So, why not hold Singler out for a game or two, so that Kelly and Czyz can play? Or hold out Scheyer so that Davidson can get some burn?

I hope I'm not being harsh and this certainly isn't directed at any specific post. But I've just never bought this argument's implications.

And I really hope I'm not registering on anyone's whine-o-meter.

Because you don't hold out one of your best players just to test the team or develop other players. But in 2000 MSU had Cleaves out for the beginning of the season and I think it made them stronger at the end of the year.

[Wander]

Originally Posted by jimsumner

But let's examine this logically. If it's really going to help the team, why wait for a suspension? Why not hold out Nolan for a game or two anyway?

I remember half-seriously wondering if we would bench Redick for an entire game his senior year. I think I agree with you that it's not a good idea, but I'm not 100% sure (plus, that would have sucked considering JJ was breaking a new scoring record every other game).

[allenmurray]

Originally Posted by CEF1959

No, what I said was correct. And this business of seeking small distinctions to justify whining about "1 preseason +1 season" vs. "2 season" suspensions is exactly the sort of thing I'm decrying. Both violated NCAA rules, both were penalized by being suspended for two games, and if you want to complain that John Wall got off lighter than Nolan Smith based on the distinctions you are drawing, that's whining. It sounds like a twelve-year old complaining to his mother how unfair it is that Johnny got more pudding.

I'll say it again, btw: You don't hear the Duke staff or Nolan Smith crying about it. Only among anal-retentive fandome is this an issue.

Let's man up, turn the page, forget about John Wall, and beat UNC-G.

Go Duke!

The reasons you gave for Wall's suspension were factually incorrect. Your saying they were not does not make it so. I don't care how many games either of them got suspended for, I just think you shouldn't state things as fact that are not true. If Wall's issue had been AAU team travel the same issue/penalty would have applied to Kelly. That was not Wall's issue. His issue was having his expenses paid by a registered agent. Again, pointing out that you can't get your facts straight is not whining, it is pointing out that you can't get your facts straight.

FWIW - I am not defending Nolan or Duke - I actually think our situation is worse in some ways. Unlike Wall, Nolan had a host of college coaches/support staff who should have known better, and who were available to advise him. It was your (again incorrect) assumption that I was defending Nolan/Duke in this matter. I was not - I was simply pointing out that your "facts" were not correct.

[airowe]

Allen, just so we can move on from this discussion, the whining comment was directed at me from a post earlier in the thread about the relative penalties given to Wall and Nolan.

The poster has yet to address the issue of their facts being incorrect, but did not call anyone but myself a whiner.

[Kedsy]

Originally Posted by jimsumner

"I agree with many above in that this will actually help the team. There will absolutely be times when Nolan is sick, injured, or in foul trouble, and we will already be prepared when this happens."

I understand the sentiment. This is a way to make the proverbial lemonade out of the proverbial lemons. Coaches use this all the time. Beats saying "this sucks. We might as well shut it down for awhile."

But let's examine this logically. If it's really going to help the team, why wait for a suspension? Why not hold out Nolan for a game or two anyway?

There may be a time when Singler is sick, injured or in foul trouble. So, why not hold Singler out for a game or two, so that Kelly and Czyz can play? Or hold out Scheyer so that Davidson can get some burn?

I hope I'm not being harsh and this certainly isn't directed at any specific post. But I've just never bought this argument's implications.

And I really hope I'm not registering on anyone's whine-o-meter.

I understand what you're saying, Jim, and I understand why you're saying it, but the real unknown for this team is how will they respond if they're temporarily short a guard. Because in that case some of the game has to be played with one "true" guard plus Kyle and/or Lance playing the "2" (assuming Duke played positions, of course). It doesn't matter which guard is missing, so there's not much additional to be gained by sitting out Jon (once Nolan's suspension was announced, anyway).

Similarly, sitting Kyle would mean more burn for Andre on the wing and/or for the other big players -- nothing that isn't happening anyway, just in a bigger dose. So little would be gained by that.

Personally, I was hoping the one guard lineup would get some run early in the year before Nolan's suspension came down. I don't know whether K was considering it or not, but now that he's forced to do it I'm not unhappy, because I think there's a benefit to trying that sort of lineup.

This isn't to say I would have advocated sitting Nolan out if he hadn't been suspended, but I would have certainly been in favor of trying a one guard lineup for 10 or 15 minutes in these early games. That's why I am among those who say it's not all bad that we get to test that lineup while Nolan is out.

That's my attempt at logical examination. Not sure it makes sense, but I hope it does.

[Ohiobobcat204]

Its a real shame that Nolan got suspended. Luckily for us, the 2 games he will be missing SHOULD be wins regardless. This may even be a good thing, Andre Dawkins will get a chance to step up early and really show what he can do. I am extremely excited about Dawkins.
On the topic of Nolan, i see him making a rediculous leap this year. Hes got so much talent and looked pretty sick in the blue and white game. I think he may be the teams MVP come seasons end

[flyingdutchdevil]

Originally Posted by Ohiobobcat204

On the topic of Nolan, i see him making a rediculous leap this year. Hes got so much talent and looked pretty sick in the blue and white game. I think he may be the teams MVP come seasons end

Was that intentional? If it was, you missed a 'k'.

I too hope, and believe, that Nolan will take a huge leap this year

[dukefanbrooklyn]

Originally Posted by Ohiobobcat204

Its a real shame that Nolan got suspended. Luckily for us, the 2 games he will be missing SHOULD be wins regardless. This may even be a good thing, Andre Dawkins will get a chance to step up early and really show what he can do. I am extremely excited about Dawkins.
On the topic of Nolan, i see him making a rediculous leap this year. Hes got so much talent and looked pretty sick in the blue and white game. I think he may be the teams MVP come seasons end

I hope Nolan becomes at least a third team all-american but if he the MVP of the team then two other guy's really messed up this season which i hope doesn't happen.

[CEF1959]

Originally Posted by allenmurray

The reasons you gave for Wall's suspension were factually incorrect.

No, they WERE correct. Wall got expenses paid like a LOT of AAU kids get expenses paid. They don't have summer jobs, so coaches pay for stuff. It turns out that the money for Wall came from a guy -- his coach -- who turned out to be a registered agent. Neither Wall (nor Ryan Kelly) knew this. Wall's payments were different from Kelly's so Wall got suspended and Kelly didn't. But Wall's suspension was in line with similar incidents in the past. And (more importantly) Nolan's was in line with incidents similar to HIS in the past. Done deal. Most people move on.

But, regardless of those facts, then we had this exchange:

X: It's so unfair that Wall got 2 games including one exhibition and Nolan got two season games.
Y: Don't whine about small differences; they both broke the rules and got punished accordingly.
X: I'm not whining.
Y: Yes, you are whining.
X: Quit whining about my whining. I'm not whining.

That reminds me of how kids react to being told not to whine. What do they do? They whine even harder, "I'm not whining."

It's an attitude about things that I'm talking about involving a fan's reaction to NCAA sanctions. I say let's take the high ground and thereby distance ourselves from other fans of other programs. Dare I mention the Deng flap?

I think it's unseemly to ... er ... comment negatively upon comparative NCAA disciplines. It makes us look like whiners. Remember how much Kentucky fans complain about how unfair the NCAA is to them? Do you really want to be like that? Doesn't it seem like whining when people complain about how unfair the NCAA is to them? Maybe not to you, but it does to me.

So I'm holding us to the same standard, suggesting that complaining about NCAA sanctions in this case is only fodder for the haters who are already prone to see Duke fans as whiners.

If you are worried that you might be on the whine-o-meter, you probably already are.

[Ohiobobcat204]

Originally Posted by dukefanbrooklyn

I hope Nolan becomes at least a third team all-american but if he the MVP of the team then two other guy's really messed up this season which i hope doesn't happen.

While i do believe Jon and Kyle both probably are the safer bets, having Nolan as MVP of the team wouldnt be an awful situation if he plays at the level many of us think he is capable of

[Boozer]

Originally Posted by CEF1959

No, they WERE correct. Wall got expenses paid like a LOT of AAU kids get expenses paid. They don't have summer jobs, so coaches pay for stuff. It turns out that the money for Wall came from a guy -- his coach -- who turned out to be a registered agent. Neither Wall (nor Ryan Kelly) knew this. Wall's payments were different from Kelly's so Wall got suspended and Kelly didn't. But Wall's suspension was in line with similar incidents in the past. And (more importantly) Nolan's was in line with incidents similar to HIS in the past. Done deal. Most people move on.

John Wall's suspension was for a registered agent paying John's travel expenses on unofficial visits to schools recruiting him. It had nothing to do with expenses paid to travel to and play in AAU tournaments because the AAU expenses are allowed to be paid by the AAU team and/or coach.

The penalty calls for Wall to sit out 2 games (1 exhibition, 1 regular season) and to repay the travel expenses for the unofficial visits to schools that were recruiting him.

[jesus_hurley]

Originally Posted by Boozer

John Wall's suspension was for a registered agent paying John's travel expenses on unofficial visits to schools recruiting him. It had nothing to do with expenses paid to travel to and play in AAU tournaments because the AAU expenses are allowed to be paid by the AAU team and/or coach.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...story/12446705

The school announced Friday that the 6-foot-4 freshman must sit out two games and repay almost $800 in expenses incurred during unofficial visits to schools during his junior year at Word of God Christian Academy.

[CEF1959]

As I said, Wall got payments from an AAU coach, who turned out to be an agent, unbeknownst to John Wall. Such payments are common. What was different here was that the coach happened to be an AGENT. Ooops. I was correct about all that.

So Wall got suspended in line with past NCAA practice.

Nolan played in an unauthorised game, in violation of NCAA rules.

So he got suspended in line with past NCAA practice.

Some here whined about how unfair the disparity was. Wall got 1 exhibition game plus 1 season game. Nolan got suspended for 2 season games. It also turns out that Nolan might have played in TWO unsanctioned games, which justified a two-game suspension.

In any event, I maintain that whining about that kind of stuff makes us look like, ... well, whiners.

AND I noted that neither Coach K nor Nolan complained. Check it out from Duke Update:

"He shouldn't have done it," Krzyzewski said. "The guys know. And this is what every basketball player has to know, don't play in a game that has time and score (being kept), unless it's a sanctioned game."

Smith, who's from Upper Marlboro, Md., said he played in a summer league game in the Washington, D.C., area while he was home before the second session of summer school. He said he didn't realize he'd made a mistake until he got back to campus.

Krzyzewski said the suspension was for two games because Duke's staff was uncertain whether Smith had played in one game or two and wanted to err on the side of caution in reporting to the NCAA. Smith said he accepted the punishment.

"I was definitely disappointed in myself," he said. " ... With the rules the NCAA has, you've got to get permission as a college athlete. I definitely learned my lesson."

So if neither Nolan nor K is crying about the distinction between Nolan and Wall, why are you?

Let's move on.

[Kedsy]

Originally Posted by CEF1959

As I said, Wall got payments from an AAU coach, who turned out to be an agent, unbeknownst to John Wall. Such payments are common. What was different here was that the coach happened to be an AGENT. Ooops. I was correct about all that.

So Wall got suspended in line with past NCAA practice.

Nolan played in an unauthorised game, in violation of NCAA rules.

So he got suspended in line with past NCAA practice.

Some here whined about how unfair the disparity was. Wall got 1 exhibition game plus 1 season game. Nolan got suspended for 2 season games. It also turns out that Nolan might have played in TWO unsanctioned games, which justified a two-game suspension.

In any event, I maintain that whining about that kind of stuff makes us look like, ... well, whiners.

AND I noted that neither Coach K nor Nolan complained. Check it out from Duke Update:

"He shouldn't have done it," Krzyzewski said. "The guys know. And this is what every basketball player has to know, don't play in a game that has time and score (being kept), unless it's a sanctioned game."

Smith, who's from Upper Marlboro, Md., said he played in a summer league game in the Washington, D.C., area while he was home before the second session of summer school. He said he didn't realize he'd made a mistake until he got back to campus.

Krzyzewski said the suspension was for two games because Duke's staff was uncertain whether Smith had played in one game or two and wanted to err on the side of caution in reporting to the NCAA. Smith said he accepted the punishment.

"I was definitely disappointed in myself," he said. " ... With the rules the NCAA has, you've got to get permission as a college athlete. I definitely learned my lesson."

So if neither Nolan nor K is crying about the distinction between Nolan and Wall, why are you?

Let's move on.

You know, I was trying really hard not to get involved in this, but at this point you're just whining about the whining. (Or non-whining, as the case may, or may not, be).

[airowe]

Originally Posted by CEF1959

Wall played on an AAU team, and the team paid his expenses as is always the case. It later turned out that his coach was a registered agent. That's not exactly the same thing as "taking money from an agent" in the sense you imply. There was no suggestion that Wall knew he was a registered agent.

Originally Posted by jesus_hurley

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...story/12446705

Originally Posted by CEF1959

As I said, Wall got payments from an AAU coach, who turned out to be an agent, unbeknownst to John Wall. Such payments are common. What was different here was that the coach happened to be an AGENT. Ooops. I was correct about all that.

So Wall got suspended in line with past NCAA practice.

Did you even read this article?

The school announced Friday that the 6-foot-4 freshman must sit out two games and repay almost $800 in expenses incurred during unofficial visits to schools during his junior year at Word of God Christian Academy.

Let's move on.

[CEF1959]

Originally Posted by Kedsy

You know, I was trying really hard not to get involved in this, but at this point you're just whining about the whining. (Or non-whining, as the case may, or may not, be).

Yup, I'm against whining about NCAA sanctions when the coach and player agree the sanctions are fair. If that makes me a "whiner" about whining, so be it. I might also "whine" about other idiocy in the future, especially if I think it makes us look bad. Feel free to whine about that as you see fit.

Now, can we PLEASE move on?

Of course not. Someone can't leave it alone, so he says the following:

[Kedsy]

Originally Posted by CEF1959

Now, can we PLEASE move on?

No offense intended, but you appear to be the one who isn't moving on.

[-jk]

Enough. Enough whining. And whining about whining. Ad infinitum.

-jk