Yes
No
Yeah, I think people are too quick to toss out discussion of jersey retirement. The guys with their jerseys retired all had some phenomenal accomplishments. They had some combination of a Final Four appearance (or a championship), a NPOY/NDPOY, 1st Team All-American, and/or graduating as the school's all-time record holder in at least one of the major categories.Originally Posted by RoyalBlue08
As of right now, Scheyer falls short on all counts. He's had a very nice and solid individual career so far but far from jersey retirement to this point. I mean, coming into the season he'd never averaged 15ppg, never made even an All-ACC team. His teams have only even made the Sweet-16 once (and never beyond that point), and only won one ACC title (and no regular season titles). That's not meant to disparage his career, which has been very good. It's just that it should take A LOT to get the jersey retired and he hasn't reached that yet.
I think it'll take a Final Four appearance and a NPOY to get his jersey retired. He needs that level of team success and that level of individual accomplishment to be in consideration, because up until this year he's been essentially a complementary player on teams that have had less national success than those guys in the rafters.
Given that he was more a complementary player for his first three years and never a star, it might even take both a championship AND an NPOY to get it done. Of course, if he keeps playing at this level, maybe we'll see both happen.
I agree that Scheyer needs an NPOY type of season, but something about relying on the voters who select the Wooden winner to also select which jerseys get retired at Duke doesn't seem like K's style. If Scheyer maintains his level of play, ultimately gets passed over in the NPOY race for a flashier player, but leads us to a championship, he should get serious consideration for jersey retirement.
I think this is the key. On top of that, Scheyer didn't really play a leading role in any of those previous years. It's really hard to justify retirement of the jersey for a guy who was the third or fourth most prominent player for three years of his career on a team that just didn't have much national success (or even much ACC success relative to the last 30 years for Duke).
As such, it's going to take a monster year (both individually and team-wise) for Scheyer to get the jersey retired. I think it'll take even more than just a Final Four and 1st Team All-American. I think it's going to take a POY award and at least a Final Four. Of course, he's certainly on the right track at the moment.
You know, it's interesting. If (and that's a giant if) Scheyer continues on his current pace, he really won't fit the profile for the Hall of Honor or a retired jersey. We really haven't had a player spend three years as a purely complementary player and then contend for NPOY honors in his senior season.
Yeah, we've had a few guys be complementary players their first two years and end up getting their jerseys retired. But all of those retired had reached some level of national honor (and/or tournament success) and had major ACC honors by their junior years. For Scheyer, he's always been in the shadows:
Freshman year: 3rd/4th guy (behind McRoberts and Nelson, on par with Paulus)
Sophomore year: 3rd/4th/5th guy (behind Nelson and Singler, on par with Paulus and Henderson)
Junior year: 3rd guy (behind Henderson and Singler)
This year, he's become the main guy. But he's got a lot of ground to make up.
I don't think it's fair to characterize Scheyer as the third or fourth best player or a "purely complementary player" for his first three years. Certainly if you look at the numbers and All-ACC honors, there's a strong argument that Nelson, McRoberts, Singler, and Henderson have all been more "prominent" players. But then, Scheyer's contributions have never been summed up by numbers and honors, have they?
We've had well-balanced teams (at least at the top) for all of Jon's seasons. No Redicks or Williamses or Battiers. No player that Scheyer played with was ever our "lead player" like those guys were. Instead, for Scheyer's career, we've had 3-4 players every year who were absolutely essential to our team success (this year, too). Jon has always been one of those players; on many nights, even in his freshman year, he was the most important player, and on many nights it was someone else. But if Jon was merely a complementary player, then so Singler and Nelson et al. have been.
When talking about honors as great as jersey retirement, I think it's absolutely fair to talk about Scheyer as being the third/fourth most prominent player. That's not to say he wasn't a key contributor to the team each year. But in each of those years, a couple of other players had slightly more prominent roles. So in terms of statistical performance and critical acclaim, Scheyer was very much the 3rd/4th player on each of those teams.
Ultimately, numbers and honors (and just as importantly team success) are what get you a jersey retirement. So while Scheyer brings a lot of "intangibles" to the table, those intangibles haven't to this point resulted in national honors (or even ACC season honors) or national team success. And those are the things that matter with regard to jersey retirement.
On another Duke website(BDN) I had an interesting discussion regarding Duke's all decade team. I suggested that Jon deserved the honor over Chris Duhon. Most thought Chris deserved it because he was on two FF teams with one Championship. My response was to show that Jon had better overall numbers than Chris. The exception being career assists. Chris had other all decade players on his teams. Shelden, JJ, Luol, Dahntay, Boozer, Dunleavy & Jay Williams. Jon had none. I love both guys and would really have a hard time picking one over another. Go Duke!
Were you choosing reserves at that point? J.Williams, Redick, Battier, and S.Williams are obvious selections. The fifth spot is interesting. It's amazing how many great players Duhon played with at Duke (FOUR jersey retirees and three/four more big-time NBAers!). That certainly floated his assist totals somewhat, though he was a terrific passer as well.
Out of curiousity, how did Deng and Jones rate as all-decade but not Henderson, Singler, Nelson, or McRoberts? I'd argue that those guys were just as prominent in combination of impact and longevity as Jones and Deng.
Post season wins means a lot.
Jones won exactly one more postseason game than Singler and Henderson, and he got to play with Jason Williams, Carlos Boozer and Mike Dunleavy for half of them.
The more I think about it, the more I think Spanarkel is the most relevant comparison for Scheyer, both in terms of style and in terms of consideration for jersey retirement.
Spanarkel was a consistently solid player, and had great numbers in three of his four years. He wound up with just over 2,000 points, 399 assists, and 450 rebounds. Spanarkel's teams made one Final Four, and he bagged one First Team All-American honor (which Scheyer may achieve this year). Spanarkel will have at least one more First Team All-ACC honor and one more Second-Team honor.
Unless Scheyer gets a NPOY and a championship, Spanarkel will have had the more distinguished career. Yet Spanarkel did not get his jersey retired. It just shows how high the bar is for jersey retirement.
Scottie Pippen is considered as one of the Nba's 50 greatest players. Now is he really? No, but he did play with the greatest ever in Micheal Jordan.
Point being, Jones played with better talent and had more success IMO.
Not quite the same thing. Pippen was 1st Team All-NBA three times (including the two seasons in his prime without Jordan), 2nd Team All-NBA two times, third-team All-NBA two times, 1st team all-defense 7 times, and a 7-time All Star. He was the second-best player on six championship teams. He was, in fact, arguably one of the 50 best of all time. When you get to the end of that 50-greatest list, I'd bet his credentials stack up fairly well.
Jones had only (very) marginally more postseason success than Singler and Henderson despite playing fourth fiddle to better players in many of those wins. Singler had better individual honors and Henderson had comparable honors. That's not really comparable to the multitude of success that Pippen had, both individually and team.
Robert Horry played with better talent than most and had more success than most. Would you put him on an All-Decade team? I wouldn't.
I don't see Jones and Deng as deserving at all of all-decade. Luol was here for ONE YEAR. He barely qualifies as a Dukie in my book. A good player with tons of potential, sure - but nowhere near a body of work to bump him ahead of several others. I'd say much the same about Maggette the previous decade. As for Dahntay, he was entertaining for sure. But only a 2-year player, and the 4th or 5th option on the team. Henderson, Singler, & McRoberts were/are all better IMO.
Chris D? Absolutely. 4-year player, leader, key contributor to NC team & second FF team, incredible heart, outstanding D, great passer.
Back on topic, I think you can make a good case for Jon to have his number retired. But it isn't stronger, all considered, than the case for Chris IMO, to say nothing of the old-timers (though, IIRC, Tinker never graduated). And it may be a moot point anyway if you need NPOY honors, which is what the Duke U president said in presenting to JJ & Shel. (Hurley doesn't qualify under that criterion, but he was and is the all-time collegiate assist leader, and (I think) a FF MVP. Pretty close.)
Quel est si drole de la paix, de l'amour, et de la comprehension?
Gene Banks was a year ahead of me at Duke and I'm almost certain he graduated. A quick google search also suggests that he did. Why do you think he didn't?
Thats a terrible thing to say. I hope you take it back.
Obviously we would love all of our players to develop and grow in front of us for 4 years, but for those that end up leaving early, we as fans and past alumni should not fault them for it.
I would have to say that Battier's 2001 season alone would land him on Duke's all decade team. I would say JWill, Redick, Battier, Boozer, Williams as my starting 5 all decade team. Other guys I would rank ahead of Scheyer would include Dunleavy and Duhon. I think Scheyer would fall in right after them.
An interesting comparison as far as "prominent" players go is Battier. Battier wasn't among the top 5 scorers his 1st 2 years at Duke. He led the team in scoring his junior year and was 2nd for his senior year. They actually kind of remind me of one another in a lot of ways. They both came in as freshman and played incredibly intelligent basketball. It may have taken Scheyer a little longer, but he's turned on his offense in much the same way. Obviously Battier was all-world defensively and Scheyer doesn't quite compare in that respect. I definitely think he needs to be an All-American and bring home a NCAA title but stranger things have happened.
I was wondering... does the "Senior Class Award" count?Jon should definitely be in the running for that...
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