Playoff Baseball

[InSpades]

d

The popular Yankees websites/message boards all did not want Cashman's contract renewed. In fact, popular baseball opinion at the time is that it would not be renewed -- people were surprised that the relationship was renewed. You'll note there was a NY Times article about Cashman being on thin ice -- and the Times usually only writes about such topics when they become quite popular.



They are different situations, as they occurred at different times. They could have had Santana a few years ago. Sabathia was for this season.

And I completely disagree with the bolded part. If you are getting a bona fide major league all-star at market rate salary, in exchange for prospects -- that is a great deal. True free-agents are becoming harder to come by due to revenue sharing (more mid-market teams are locking up premier talent).

They are called prospects for a reason -- TINSTAAP.

As I said, you can find people who want to fire *any* NY GM/coach/manager. I actually am a Yankee fan and do read Yankee forums/websites. Most Yankee fans think Cashman has done a good job throughout his time with the Yankees.

Santana was traded 2 years ago. CC was a free agent 1 year ago. How different were those times? They are called prospects because they could become good (or great) players. Guys like Santana and Sabathia were at one time prospects. I think the Mets trade for Santana was fine, they didn't give up nearly as much as the Yankees were being asked to give up. I just think you are much better off trading for a guy like Cliff Lee who you can keep for another year at a reasonable salary instead of trading for a guy who's going to immediately demand $20M per year. The most valuable guys in baseball are guys who are underpaid for what they produce (a guy like Lincecum who should probably be making $15+m and is making less than $1M).

[SoCalDukeFan]

it is good for baseball to have a strong Yankee team, it is not good for baseball to have so many weak teams and so many teams whose season is over by the 4th of July.

The whole structure stinks. I am not a Yankee hater and I applaud them for using the money to win. The structure needs to be changed.

SoCal

[ncexnyc]

Without a doubt this championship buys Brian Cashman another couple of years as the GM of the Yankees.

There definitely were calls for Cashman's head after last years failure to make the playoffs. Many of the headhunters pointed to his failure to make the Santana trade and the fact that Santana had a very impressive 2008 season for the Mets, while his trio of young guns, Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy were busts.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees took a play out of the Saux playbook and made low ball offers to both Damon and Matsui, hoping they turn them down so they could then go after Bay or Holliday.

If Andy decides to return, I don't see them chasing after Lachey, but if Andy says he's through, then I believe they will definitely be in the hunt. There would be way to many question marks with a rotation of C.C., A.J., Wang, Hughes, Kennedy and/or Chamberlain.

Since the next free agent class is projected to contain the likes of Mauer, Lee, and Halladay. The Yankees could gamble and stand pat and then pull off another huge off season lke they did this year.

[Olympic Fan]

It's going to be interesting to see how the Yankees react in this year's free agent market. Of course, it's going to be interesting to see how the Red Sox react.

Actually, Boston (the second biggest spender in baseball) might have the tougher choices with Bay and Martinez on the block. I think with Varitek clearly on the downhill side of his career, they have to make a strong bid to keep Martinez at catcher.

Bay is a little different. Did they just deal for Hermedia as a fourth outfielder or is he insurance in case they can't get Bay. I'm not an expert on the Boston farm system, but I have read that they have a couple of quality OF prospects coming and they may not want to make a long-term offer to Bay.

In addition to all that, they have the issue of Tim Wakefield, probably the most durable starter in this decade -- until he started to have back problems this year. He's old, but a lot of old knuckleballers are effective.

As for the Yankees, the obvious tough choices are Damon and Matsui. Both are aging, but clearly the Yanks are not World Champs this year without their contributions. Matsui is a problem because he's strictly a DH and I know the Yankees want to open up more DH possibilities for Posada, so he can catch less.

On the pitching front, I strongly suspect the Yankees will work out something to re-sign Andy Pettite. But that gives them just three solid starters (with CC and Burnett). Do you go out and sign a starter (Lachey?) or do you count on finding another couple of starters out of Kennedy, Gaudin, Hughes and/or Chamberlain??? The bad news is that Chien-Ming Wang is facing a long rehab -- the best case scenario for him is that he's ready to pitch again mid-season 2010. The worst case ... he never pitches again.

One thing I have read is that the Yankees are the favorite to sign Cuban defector Aroldis Chapman. Last spring in the World Classic, he blew away major league hitters with a 100 mph fastball. He's a 6-foot-4 lefty who is reported to be 21 years old. Not sure I believe that age, but even if he's 24 or 25, he looks like the best Cuban defector since El Duque.

I also read a quote from one of the Steinbrenner brats saying that the Yankees won't be spending a lot in free agency. I'll believe that when I see it.

But I will be interested to see their approach -- one source I saw suggested that the Yankees have more prospects in their minor league system than anybody -- but most of them are at a lower level (guys like Jesus Montero, a 19-year-old catcher with a 900-plus OPS at AA last year and young arms like Manuel Banuelo and Arodys Vizcaino). About the only guy ready to come up now is OF Austin Jackson, a former Georgia Tech basketball recruit, who looks like the second coming of Kenny Lofton (not much power, but great speed and a decent OBP).

Normally, I'd expect to see the Yankees ignore their young, home-grown prospects and hit the free agent market hard -- yeah, Holliday (or Bay) in the outfield, a pitcher such as Lachey and maybe Chapman as a third big purchase.

But I think Jim makes a good point about what happened this year at the trade deadline. The Phillies scramble for Halliday and settle for Cliff Lee. The White Sox deal for Jake Peevy. The Dodgers trade for Matt Holliday. The Red Sox grab Martinez and Wagner.

Yet, the Yankees, normally the team most likely to spend big with a pennant in site, mere make a couple of minor moves, picking up Hairston and Hinske, a couple of backups.

I don't know, my understanding is that with Steinbrenner ill, Cashman -- for the first time in years -- is now making the baseball decisions. Over the last year, whoever has made those decisions has mostly made good decisions.

I hope it continues.

[YourLandlord]

Of course, it's going to be interesting to see how the Red Sox react.

Actually, Boston (the second biggest spender in baseball)

Actually, false.

2009 MLB payrolls

Yankees $201,449,289
Mets $135,773,988
Cubs $135,050,000
Red Sox $122,696,000
Tigers $115,085,145
Angels $113,709,000
Phillies $113,004,048
Astros $102,996,415
Dodgers $100,458,101
Mariners $98,904,167
Braves $96,726,167
White Sox $96,068,500
Cardinals $88,528,411
Giants $82,161,450
Indians $81,625,567
Blue Jays $80,993,657
Brewers $79,857,502
Rockies $75,201,000
D-backs $73,571,667
Reds $70,968,500
Royals $70,908,333
Rangers $68,646,023
Orioles $67,101,667
Twins $65,299,267
Rays $63,313,035
Athletics $62,310,000
Nationals $59,328,000
Pirates $48,743,000
Padres $42,796,700
Marlins $36,814,000

The difference between the Yankees and the 2nd place team is the same as the difference between the 2nd place team and the 22nd place team.

might have the tougher choices with Bay and Martinez on the block.

Victor Martinez is on contract through next season.

[jimsumner]

Asssuming we're talking about the free-agent Angels pitcher, it's John Lackey.

Now, if Nick Lachey is a free agent, that's a different thing entirely.

Says the guy who turned Kei Igawa into Ogawa. Of course, Lackey is a successful major-league pitcher. Igawa? Not so much.

[Olympic Fan]

Actually, false.

2009 MLB payrolls

Yankees $201,449,289
Mets $135,773,988
Cubs $135,050,000
Red Sox $122,696,000
Tigers $115,085,145
Angels $113,709,000
Phillies $113,004,048
Astros $102,996,415
Dodgers $100,458,101
...

Victor Martinez is on contract through next season.

Thanks for the tip on Martinez ... I've seen him listed as a free agent with an team option this year ...

As for the salary rankings, there's some dispute. At the Business of Baseball site, they haven't posted the final 2009 figures, but the Red Sox were second in payroll every year from 2004 to 2008 (sorry I can't link PDF pages).

If you check wiki (and I know how unreliable that is), they list the Red Sox payroll in 2009 at $138 million. There are different ways of counting -- for instance, how do you include the $51.1 million in rights fees that the Red Sox paid just to negitiate with Dice-K (and not included in his $52-$60 salary deal)? Average it over the six years of the deal and you could add another $8.4 million a year to the Boston "payroll."

In one way, the Red Sox should be happy that the Yankees won it with their bloated salary this year. Before that, the two biggest payrolls to win world championships were the 2007 Red Rox ($155.4 million) and the 2004 Red Sox ($130.4 million).

It's kind of funny to see the whining from the Boston fans about the Yankee payroll. In this decade, the only team they haven't outspent is the Yankees. After a century of futility, they've finally found a modicum of success by becoming the Yankees Light.

"Greed is good" -- I can't remember who said that ... was it George Steinbrenner or Theo Epstein?

For anybody else in baseball, listening to a Red Sox fan complain about the Yankee payroll must be like the way I would feel if I heard Donald Trump complain about Bill Gates' profligate ways.

[YourLandlord]

It's kind of funny to see the whining from the Boston fans about the Yankee payroll. In this decade, the only team they haven't outspent is the Yankees. After a century of futility, they've finally found a modicum of success by becoming the Yankees Light.

For anybody else in baseball, listening to a Red Sox fan complain about the Yankee payroll must be like the way I would feel if I heard Donald Trump complain about Bill Gates' profligate ways.

Absurd. You're suggesting the Red Sox spending is independent of that of the Yankees. The Red Sox have increased their spending because they have to, moreso than any other team.

25 teams in baseball can win their division and make the playoffs. The Red Sox, Orioles, Blue Jays, and Rays are forced to compete with a team that spends 8x as much as other teams.

I presume you want these four teams to simply roll over and die for the oh so powerful Yankees? If the Red Sox want to make the playoffs, they are FORCED to spend just to compete.

[ncexnyc]

The Sox don't have to spend in order to make the playoffs. They could just settle for a wild card, however they want to be the Beast of the East and therefore, while they throwout a phrase like, "Evil Empire", they are more than willing to spend, spend, spend.

As for the other teams in the East, both the Jays and Orioles have the resources, but they aren't willing to spend as much as they should. The Rays may not have the deep pockets of the rest of their division, but they have tons of young talent and will remain a factor in the division for sometime.

[YourLandlord]

The Sox don't have to spend in order to make the playoffs. They could just settle for a wild card, however they want to be the Beast of the East and therefore, while they throwout a phrase like, "Evil Empire", they are more than willing to spend, spend, spend.

As for the other teams in the East, both the Jays and Orioles have the resources, but they aren't willing to spend as much as they should. The Rays may not have the deep pockets of the rest of their division, but they have tons of young talent and will remain a factor in the division for sometime.

Incredible.

What does that even mean -- they "don't have to spend in order to make the playoffs." That statement makes no sense.

"just settle for a wild card" -- such a typical Yankee fan attitude.

There is no security in "settling for the wild card" when you play in the toughest division in the AL.

As for the Jays and the O's -- what are you talking about, they "have the resources" -- the resources for what? To spend a quarter of a billion dollars a year, like the Yankees? Um no, no they don't.

Could they spend more? Perhaps. But it's hard to justify increasing your payroll from $75 million to $90 million when you're competing with a team that is spending $210 million.

[JasonEvans]

Simple question--

Are there Yankee/Met/RedSox fans here who think baseball's monetary structure is fine and needs no adjustment?

If so, I would be interested in hearing their arguments. Do they similarly feel that football and basketball are doing things wrong?

Outside of that central question, I am not sure what we are getting at here. The Yanks and other big spenders have every right to spend that way and recent history shows it is a fairly effective way of making the playoffs. Of course the fans of lesser spending teams will resent it, but they all probably secretly wish their team did the same thing.

It is a bit like being a Va Tech fan who resents Duke and UNC for always getting the top recruits. They aren't breaking or even bending any rules. They simply have more capital (in this case it is a capital of reputation not money) than you and they are using it.

--Jason "Duke and UNC are sooooo the Yankees and Red Sox" Evans

[jimsumner]

"Jason "Duke and UNC are sooooo the Yankees and Red Sox" Evans "

As long as Duke is the Yankees.

BTW, last Yankees World Series title was in 2000. Followed six months later by a Duke NCAA title. Surely, a cause and effect relationship, if ever one existed.

So, I've just made Yankees fans of the entire board.

[InSpades]

While I don't think the payroll structure in baseball is perfect... I do think having a successful Yankees team is good for baseball. Compare with basketball where the Knicks are terrible and will likely remain terrible for a while. This can't be good for basketball to have the biggest market in the country be basically irrelevant in your sport. The Knicks are terrible solely through their own incompetence, but the way things are structured in basketball makes it very hard for them to fix things. If the Yankees make a bad decision and overpay for Kei Igawa they eat the loss and go sign CC Sabathia. Meanwhile the Knicks will forever be paying for bad decisions made by their previous GMs (and their still terrible owners). If the World Series was the Rays vs. the Marlins, would anyone watch? I definitely think baseball needs to make it easier for all teams to compete but I'm not sure pure parity is really an ideal goal. I think a step in the right direction would be to fix the MLB draft and have a rookie salary scale like the NBA. Part of the problem for the poorer teams is that they can't even draft the guys they want for fear that they can't sign them.

[brevity]

"Jason "Duke and UNC are sooooo the Yankees and Red Sox" Evans "

As long as Duke is the Yankees.

BTW, last Yankees World Series title was in 2000. Followed six months later by a Duke NCAA title. Surely, a cause and effect relationship, if ever one existed.

So, I've just made Yankees fans of the entire board.

Actually, until 2000, there was some correlation between Kentucky titles in the spring and Yankee titles in the fall. Make of that what you will.

I disagree, vehemently, with the idea that the elite of college basketball compares with the glamour franchises of pro sports. Maybe if the NCAA Tournament were limited to 8 teams we could have this discussion, but 64/65 teams allows for some much-needed unpredictability. There are perennial powers, but no perennial champs in the modern era, and none since John Wooden retired.

I realize that Duke and UNC have certain advantages in recruiting and TV exposure, and that tournament sites have built-in favoritism toward Tobacco Road. In other words, in any given year, a top seed Duke team will be guaranteed a more friendly/familiar geographical path than, say, a top seed Stanford team. But there's not as direct a relationship between those advantages and postseason success as there is in the MLB.

This is annus horribilis if you, like me, hold a great deal of contempt for glamour teams on principle. The Steelers won the Super Bowl. The Lakers won the NBA Finals. The Yankees won the World Series. The Red Wings very nearly won the Stanley Cup. Then add another title for Florida football and UNC basketball. My only solace came from the struggles of the Dallas Cowboys and Notre Dame football.

[Turk]

~snip~

This is annus horribilis if you, like me, hold a great deal of contempt for glamour teams on principle. The Steelers won the Super Bowl. The Lakers won the NBA Finals. The Yankees won the World Series. The Red Wings very nearly won the Stanley Cup. Then add another title for Florida football and UNC basketball. My only solace came from the struggles of the Dallas Cowboys and Notre Dame football.

The Steelers are a "glamour team"?!? I snorked my Iron City out through my nose when I saw that. You can call the Steelers a lot of things, but I don't think the word "glamour" makes the Top 25.... (I knew having that G-20 thing in town was a bad idea that would come back to bite us in the butt...)

Whenever I go home, I am surprised at the number of mullets I still see around town. They must have made Allegheny County some sort of national mullet refuge or something...

[BlueDevilBaby]

From a Yankees fan perspective, I like the way things are since the Yankees have the potential to get to the playoff and win each year. From a Nats fan perspective, having an owner that is taking the development approach and won't spend the money to put a decent team on the field is frustrating year after year. said that, I'm also a Nats fan, and watching them put a horrible team on the field year after year is frustrating. Two 100-loss seasons in a row is an embarrassment (I personally saw live fewer than 10 wins this season at Nats Park). If there was some middle ground, I would be all for it so I could root for my Yankees (whom I'm sure would adapt just fine) from afar and watch in person a decent ballgame once in a while in DC.

[brevity]

The Steelers are a "glamour team"?!? I snorked my Iron City out through my nose when I saw that. You can call the Steelers a lot of things, but I don't think the word "glamour" makes the Top 25.... (I knew having that G-20 thing in town was a bad idea that would come back to bite us in the butt...)

Sure they are. I realize that Jack Nicholson does not have season tickets at the 50 yard line, and they're not as glamorous as the Dallas Cowboys, but their history of success and extra-regional following has given them preferential media treatment.

It's tricky, because we're talking about NFL football, which when compared to other pro leagues is (1) less glamorous and (2) not as subject to payroll discrepancies. But there are still discrepancies in brand value. Broadcast networks and sponsors have a vested interest in a handful of NFL teams doing better in the postseason. Once the playoff field was set, they certainly rooted for the Steelers to win the AFC over, say, the top seeded Tennessee Titans. (Would they have rather seen Brett Favre and the Jets? Absolutely. But they weren't an option.)

Finally, I'll admit it's hard to hate the Steelers franchise -- their stars have included linebackers and defenders, not just offensive scorers -- but I wasn't exactly rooting for title #6 last February.

[BlueDevilBaby]

Finally, I'll admit it's hard to hate the Steelers franchise -- their stars have included linebackers and defenders, not just offensive scorers -- but I wasn't exactly rooting for title #6 last February.

It's easy to hate the Steelers when you are a Cowboys fan. But I do respect them. Love to watch Troy fly around the field. Dude is scary!

[rasputin]

Sure they are. I realize that Jack Nicholson does not have season tickets at the 50 yard line, and they're not as glamorous as the Dallas Cowboys, but their history of success and extra-regional following has given them preferential media treatment.

It's tricky, because we're talking about NFL football, which when compared to other pro leagues is (1) less glamorous and (2) not as subject to payroll discrepancies. But there are still discrepancies in brand value. Broadcast networks and sponsors have a vested interest in a handful of NFL teams doing better in the postseason. Once the playoff field was set, they certainly rooted for the Steelers to win the AFC over, say, the top seeded Tennessee Titans. (Would they have rather seen Brett Favre and the Jets? Absolutely. But they weren't an option.)

Finally, I'll admit it's hard to hate the Steelers franchise -- their stars have included linebackers and defenders, not just offensive scorers -- but I wasn't exactly rooting for title #6 last February.

I wonder if some of this discussion is based on an age discrepancy. When I was a kid, the Steelers were a perenially crappy team. They were the team that let Johnny Unitas get away from them.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Simple question--

Are there Yankee/Met/RedSox fans here who think baseball's monetary structure is fine and needs no adjustment?

If so, I would be interested in hearing their arguments. Do they similarly feel that football and basketball are doing things wrong?

Outside of that central question, I am not sure what we are getting at here. The Yanks and other big spenders have every right to spend that way and recent history shows it is a fairly effective way of making the playoffs. Of course the fans of lesser spending teams will resent it, but they all probably secretly wish their team did the same thing.

It is a bit like being a Va Tech fan who resents Duke and UNC for always getting the top recruits. They aren't breaking or even bending any rules. They simply have more capital (in this case it is a capital of reputation not money) than you and they are using it.

--Jason "Duke and UNC are sooooo the Yankees and Red Sox" Evans

While I agree with much of this, I think that there are some important differences between Yankees/Red Sox and Duke/UNC.

1. Duke/UNC earned it. Go back to 1980, recruiting was not nearly so easy for Duke. The Yankees get their monetary advantage by being in New York.

2. Duke/UNC could lose it. See Matt Doherty at UNC. Unless the rules change the Yankees will have a monetary advantage for a real long time.

The fact that the Yankees could not capitalize on their advantage is, in my opinion, a stupid argument. It takes management and money. Sometimes very bad management can negate the money advantage, but it is still there.

SoCal