Tiger done for the year

[Cormac]

Just reported on ESPN radio that he is having season-ending knee surgery. I'm not sure what its to fix exactly. I know his agent said during the U.S. Open that we would never know just how bad his knee is. I guess he was right. Thoughts? Does this make his performance even more impressive? I think it does, to go something like 90 holes and still win on a severely injured knee, I don't care who the competition is, thats impressive. Can you say mentally tough?

[Cormac]

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=3450453


Looks like its the ACL. Ouch! Been there, done that, not enjoyable!!

[dkbaseball]

Wow. This will be the fourth time that knee has been operated on. I wonder how much cartilage he's got left in there, and now an ACL. I'm a little worried about his career after this development.

And yes, mental toughness doesn't get any more impressive than winning a tight U.S. Open while walking 20 miles in five days on an injured knee.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Well, at least he picked a hell of a way to end the year. Hope to see him back in top form next year, 4 championships to go!

[hurleyfor3]

I wonder whether playing the entire Open exacerbated the injury. He was certainly in pain on the back nine Saturday.

[Chicago 1995]

I wonder whether playing the entire Open exacerbated the injury. He was certainly in pain on the back nine Saturday.

He ruptured the ACL after the Open Championship in 2007.

That means at the end of last year and the beginning of this year, when he won nine of ten tourneys, he was doing it on a knee with an injured ACL.

[hurleyfor3]

He ruptured the ACL after the Open Championship in 2007.

That means at the end of last year and the beginning of this year, when he won nine of ten tourneys, he was doing it on a knee with an injured ACL.

Irrelevant. It's quite well established he can play hurt in general. But what about this specific tournament two months after surgery?

[Lavabe]

According to the story, he also discovered just before the US Open that he had stress fractures in his left tibia.:eek:

EEK!

[gw67]

Tiger puts a lot of stress on his body with his violent swings. Based on what happened at the Open, I concluded that the only thing that could keep him from breaking Jack's record was an injury shortening his career. It appears to me that this is the proper choice for him at this time. Below is pgatour.com link:

http://www.pgatour.com/2008/r/06/18/tigerwoods.surgery/index.html

gw67

[greybeard]

An ACL deficit you can live and compete with quite well as long as the knee is not unstable. Tiger's wasn't, at least not significantly. The wincing probably came from the stress fractures, which will require a period of inactivity to heal.

My guess is that Tiger decided to take the healing time as an opportunity to repair the ACL. Better I suppose to have one than not, especially at his age because the knee could become destablized with a torn ACL given the torque he puts on it.

Frankly, while watching him play in pain and do what he did I was in awe. I thought that he was having what I call knee tracking problems--a feeling, after cartelege is removed and reshaped, like your knee is made to run on tracks and isn't, which is sometimes associated with sharp pain when you put demands on it.

However, now that I know that the pain was due to his decision to play with stress fractures, the whole thing just makes me sad. Tiger says that this was his second most gratifying win in a major; to me it just brings golf futher away from sport, into a dimension of athletic competition whose hallmark is injury, pain, stamina, and drugs.

In retrospect, was Tiger's admitted use of pain killers to continue his climb to glory any different than the intelligent prophilactic use of steroids? Probably, but not as much as most people seem to presuppose. After all, Andy just used em (performance enhancing drugs, HGH) twice and it was only because he wanted to be able to "go" and his body, unaided, could not make that happen. Be careful what you glorify.

[edensquad]

The man is an absolute warrior (or an alien, lol). Winning with 2 stress fractures of the left tibia and a torn ACL.... are you kidding me?!!?

How must the rest of the PGA Tour feel.... knowing that Tiger has literally been beating them on one leg???? Yikes.

[blazindw]

I don't know about you, but I think that it makes his performance that much more legendary...a double stress fracture, a torn ACL, coming off arthoscopic knee surgery, and still won the U.S. Open after playing 91 holes of golf and walking all that distance on his knee. Gutiest performance in sports history, in my opinion, better than Jordan, better than Reed, better than Gibson.

I'm sad that I will not be able to see him play the rest of the year (including at the Ryder Cup), but glad that he's finally getting it taken care of.

P.S. Apparently, Tiger told his doctors that, despite the stress fractures, he would STILL win the U.S. Open. Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/columns/story?columnist=harig_bob&id=3450723).

[OZZIE4DUKE]

The man is an absolute warrior (or an alien, lol). Winning with 2 stress fractures of the left tibia and a torn ACL.... are you kidding me?!!?

How must the rest of the PGA Tour feel.... knowing that Tiger has literally been beating them on one leg???? Yikes.

I just said the same thing to someone else. Absolutely freakin' amazing!

[greybeard]

What's so amazing?

1. He has played this course regularly since he was a child of 10.

2. He has won on this course 7 times before, including earlier this year, which is an awful lot of times, suggesting that no one can compete with him there.

3. All the major competitors like Phil folded early.

4. His only competition was a British guy trying to make a comeback, and a 45 year old guy who everyone loves but who has not been playing anything like compelling golf and provided more of the same this weekend (non-compelling golf).

5. If anyone said that beating Rocco in an 18 hole tournament would take the number 1 player in the world a lot of luck (Roco's bad drive on 18 and then 7) no one would be calling that an exceptional performance.

6. Playing with pain is something all athletes do.

7. Tiger was on pain medication which apparently was sufficient to allow him to walk comfortably and swing comfortably except when something went wrong which happened on only a relatively few Tee shots. Then, there was extreme discomfort that seemed to be short lived; he seemed to be able swing perfectly well on his ensuing shot.

8. Tiger knows these greens like the back of his hand and grew up playing on this type of grass. Rocco is an East coast guy and playing on pohanna (spelling ugh) is relatively foreign to him.

So, what in the world makes this competition and win so special?

[JasonEvans]

Yeah, playing with pain is easy. Everyone does it all the time. You never hear about nagging injuries impacting athletic performance or someone going on the disabled list because of an injury. Everyone plays through all their injuries.

Sheesh!

Hey, Greybeard, I'd be interested in seeing if you can find one columnist or golf expert who agrees with you. As far as I can tell, all the experts -- the people paid to think about and analyze this stuff -- are saying that what Tiger did is one of the greatest feats in sports history and that he only enhanced his legend with it. Can you find anyone who agrees with you?

Oh, and the notion that he was playing the same course he has played so many times in the past is laughable. Look at the scores every other time the PGA Tour has come to Torrey Pines and the scores this time. Aside from the fact that it was in the same location, that was not at all the same course Tiger was used to playing.

--Jason "I think Tiger is a virtual lock to win SI Sportsman of the Year for this" Evans

[Shammrog]

What's so amazing?

1. He has played this course regularly since he was a child of 10.

2. He has won on this course 7 times before, including earlier this year, which is an awful lot of times, suggesting that no one can compete with him there.

3. All the major competitors like Phil folded early.

4. His only competition was a British guy trying to make a comeback, and a 45 year old guy who everyone loves but who has not been playing anything like compelling golf and provided more of the same this weekend (non-compelling golf).

5. If anyone said that beating Rocco in an 18 hole tournament would take the number 1 player in the world a lot of luck (Roco's bad drive on 18 and then 7) no one would be calling that an exceptional performance.

6. Playing with pain is something all athletes do.

7. Tiger was on pain medication which apparently was sufficient to allow him to walk comfortably and swing comfortably except when something went wrong which happened on only a relatively few Tee shots. Then, there was extreme discomfort that seemed to be short lived; he seemed to be able swing perfectly well on his ensuing shot.

8. Tiger knows these greens like the back of his hand and grew up playing on this type of grass. Rocco is an East coast guy and playing on pohanna (spelling ugh) is relatively foreign to him.

So, what in the world makes this competition and win so special?

Bearded one! Did you watch it?

He was clearly still in a lot of pain; visible wincing. And he was doing such things as rotating his left foot or even picking it up during his swing - a big no no!

Tiger hasn't played in two months. At the time of the Memorial, he couldn't walk or play at all. Then for the last two weeks his prep has been about 30 practice swings a day. He has had no ACL for a year; then he had surgery on his knee two months ago. The rehab caused a double stress fracture.

He comes back, plays with all of these factors, and beats (with clutch shots on 18 the last two rounds) ALL comers in 91 holes, including the playoff and sudden death. He didn't just beat Rocco. Rocco was just the last one left. And Rocco may not be a "star" as far as name recognition, but he does have about $14M in career earnings, so he is no marginal pro either.

Tiger is THE MAN. This is one of the greatest sports achievements I can recall.

[pfrduke]

What's so amazing?

1. He has played this course regularly since he was a child of 10.

2. He has won on this course 7 times before, including earlier this year, which is an awful lot of times, suggesting that no one can compete with him there.

3. All the major competitors like Phil folded early.

4. His only competition was a British guy trying to make a comeback, and a 45 year old guy who everyone loves but who has not been playing anything like compelling golf and provided more of the same this weekend (non-compelling golf).

5. If anyone said that beating Rocco in an 18 hole tournament would take the number 1 player in the world a lot of luck (Roco's bad drive on 18 and then 7) no one would be calling that an exceptional performance.

6. Playing with pain is something all athletes do.

7. Tiger was on pain medication which apparently was sufficient to allow him to walk comfortably and swing comfortably except when something went wrong which happened on only a relatively few Tee shots. Then, there was extreme discomfort that seemed to be short lived; he seemed to be able swing perfectly well on his ensuing shot.

8. Tiger knows these greens like the back of his hand and grew up playing on this type of grass. Rocco is an East coast guy and playing on pohanna (spelling ugh) is relatively foreign to him.

So, what in the world makes this competition and win so special?

Do you actually believe this? or are you really just being a devil's advocate?

I mean really, what the heck made Kirk Gibson's home run so impressive. The Dodgers wouldn't have needed last minute heroics if he could have just manned up and played all 9 innings. And Eckersley grooved one to him, too - the pitcher made a mistake, it wasn't really anything Gibson did. And besides, all Gibson had to do was make one lousy swing and then jog for 360 feet. And it was his home field! He knows the distance to the right-field bleachers like the back of his hand - let's see him do it in Oakland where he doesn't know the dimensions. I'm supposed to be impressed? <further curmudgeonly rumbling>

[2535Miles]

What's so amazing?
So, what in the world makes this competition and win so special?
"This is probably the greatest tournament I’ve ever had." -- Tiger Woods, considering his career at this point, making quite a statement after his victory in the 108th U.S. Open. - http://www.thegolfchannel.com/core.aspx?page=15100&select=26242

[edensquad]

On the Golf Channel just now, Bubba Watson (pretty fair Tour player) just said that, if Tiger had been 100% this win would have been incredible, going 91 holes.... maybe one of the best U.S. Open wins ever But, given what we now know of Tiger's injuries, the win is "unbelievable."

Everyone from analyst to peer has been unanimous in their respect for what Tiger did.

[greybeard]

I said devil's advocate.

BTW, boyz, I played basketball pretty intensely for 20 plus years with no ACLs, no cartelege in one knee, and not much in the other, so please do not tell me about playing with pain.

I also swung a golf club, or tried to, for just as long, before and after two surgeries on the same knee. My left knee has stuff floating around in it; has since a couple of years since my last scope job on that knee. Tiger can expect a date with the scope every couple as well. It is the way it works.

And, I still have not heard why this is such a terrific win. It was great theater, and sells the game, but please, everybody fell a part. I mean the only possible competition on the board was the guy who won a few years ago, but he tossed it away again and again and again, and the Big Easy who took it a little too easy.

Me, I was torn by rooting for Tiger and the terrifically likeable Rocco, who wasn't scaring anybody ever but kept on keeping on.

The tournament, except for that Tiger was playing in pain, was mediocre. The people who sell the sport, who make their living yaking about it, will never say such a thing. Why would they? Why people exalt plaers who play with injury of the type that Tiger did is no mystery; it appeals to the hero myth that infuses our very souls.

I understand this myth perfectly and was drawn by it as much as anyone. I watched for two days with my 17 year old son, who was named the best golfer on his high school team just last week. Heck, I was so amped after Saturday, that I said yes when Steven asked if I wanted to play a round, which we did at my old course, University of Maryland on Sunday. And, while I truly do not know where it came from (perhaps inspiration from Tiger), I played pretty close to boggie golf, lose particles in my left knee and occasional wincing and all.

But, alas while the hero myth has the allure of a young beautiful woman, I am not a young man, and know too well what value to place on one's body. Sadly, the message the media sends by exalting this win as something special does not.

And, btw, I do not think that Tiger plays this tournament if it was not at TP, where he knew he had a lifetime opportunity to pick up a major easy. You disagree perhaps, but I find it more than a tad curious that no one asked him that question. Not one of the pundits even alluded to the possibility. How come? Be careful what you glorify men; do it for your kids, which I embarassingly almost forgot. Steven, if you read this, playing hurt is stupid, you only have one body, and if you abuse it, it will cost you. There, it's never too late to try to get it right.

[edensquad]

Let me explain why this win was so terrific: our national championship tests one's game like no other. The fairways are tighter, the rough is longer & thicker, the greens are faster, and the pressure is greater than perhaps any other tournament. Year in and year out, the scores are higher in the U.S.Open than in the other 3 majors. It is a recipe to expose the flaws in one's game: Drive it sideways? Trouble. Shaky short game? Trouble. Weak iron play or putting? You get the idea.

Every one else did not choke this week.... Torrey Pines exposed the flaws in their game. Tiger had the strongest game and will. On one leg. That is terrific in my book.

[greybeard]

Let me explain why this win was so terrific: our national championship tests one's game like no other. The fairways are tighter, the rough is longer & thicker, the greens are faster, and the pressure is greater than perhaps any other tournament. Year in and year out, the scores are higher in the U.S.Open than in the other 3 majors. It is a recipe to expose the flaws in one's game: Drive it sideways? Trouble. Shaky short game? Trouble. Weak iron play or putting? You get the idea.

Every one else did not choke this week.... Torrey Pines exposed the flaws in their game. Tiger had the strongest game and will. On one leg. That is terrific in my book.

I am familiar with typical US Open tracks and this was atypical. This course could be had; Phil said that he expected someone near the top to go extremely low for an open, mid 60s, on the final day. Tiger tore apart the par 5s, except for one; birdies by him on 18 were a foregone conclusion. When was the last open when par 5s were this easy?

Had he not had ridiculously bad scores almost everyday on the opening holes, he would have put the thing out of reach by the weekend; certainly by the end of Saturday.

Phil shot himself out of the tournament by literally doing a Tin Cup on one whole to shoot a quad boggy; three times hitting the same near perfect shot from the same spot near the green. He played way subpar. Easy had so many chances to post a subpar four round total and kept missing. Both those guys literally gave the tournament away; it had nothing to do with the course.

No one, not one commentator or pundit, said that this was a usual open course, especially not the greens. The only thing that made the greens problematic was the type of grass and the inability of the Tory Pines' greens to hold up. If you have played the course, you will know that there is nothing at all exceptionally difficult about the greens on that course, nothing. If anything, they were below speed for a major and posed none of the challenges typical of championship courses.

Tory Pines did not stand up as a true US Open course; Tiger knew it and also had a huge advantage going in because he owns that course.

Even the rough was not nearly as penal as most open roughs. Come on, Tiger was heroic, but there is nothing exceptional about this Open win, but for his willingness to suffer to secure it. That, in my opinion, is not a reason for celebration or aduration. The sad thing is that 10 years from now Tiger might be saying the same thing.

[cato]

If you have played the course, you will know that there is nothing at all exceptionally difficult about the greens on that course, nothing.

Methinks you're just digging in here. I've played the course, and I was out there on Friday and Sunday. Not the same greens; not the same course.

[edensquad]

Greybeard, c'mon... Tiger was the ONLY player under par. Rocco was the ONLY player even par.... this was among the strongest (if not THE strongest) fields of any tournament in the world. And you say the course was not hard??? Find me another tournament this year where only 2 players are even par or better after 72 holes.... won't happen.

Try putting on greens with a Stimpmeter of 13 or 14.... that's what they were. Try hitting out of 5-7 inch rough... which it was.

Phil knew this course even better than Tiger; take away his Tin Cup, give him a par on 13.... and Tiger still beats him, lol. Give Tiger 2 healthy legs, and his usual time to prepare.... and he wins this thing by a wide margin.... meanwhile, the PGA Tour players will have to live with knowing they've lost to a virtual one-legged man 10 times in the past year. :D

[greybeard]

Greybeard, c'mon... Tiger was the ONLY player under par. Rocco was the ONLY player even par.... this was among the strongest (if not THE strongest) fields of any tournament in the world. And you say the course was not hard??? Find me another tournament this year where only 2 players are even par or better after 72 holes.... won't happen.

Try putting on greens with a Stimpmeter of 13 or 14.... that's what they were. Try hitting out of 5-7 inch rough... which it was.

Phil knew this course even better than Tiger; take away his Tin Cup, give him a par on 13.... and Tiger still beats him, lol. Give Tiger 2 healthy legs, and his usual time to prepare.... and he wins this thing by a wide margin.... meanwhile, the PGA Tour players will have to live with knowing they've lost to a virtual one-legged man 10 times in the past year. :D

No one is even remotely suggesting that he isn't the best that ever walked the planet. The Pines just ain't the challenge that you suggest, and the field, well, right now there isn't any. I do love Rocco; felt bad that even while I wanted to say that I was rooting for him, I knew that I couldn't.

[YmoBeThere]

Spite I tell you, he just wanted me to lose my Tiger versus the field bet...

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I am familiar with typical US Open tracks and this was atypical.

When was the last open when par 5s were this easy?

Had he not had ridiculously bad scores almost everyday on the opening holes, he would have put the thing out of reach by the weekend; certainly by the end of Saturday.

Phil shot himself out of the tournament by literally doing a Tin Cup on one whole to shoot a quad boggy;

No one, not one commentator or pundit, said that this was a usual open course, especially not the greens. The only thing that made the greens problematic was the type of grass and the inability of the Tory Pines' greens to hold up.

Tory Pines did not stand up as a true US Open course; Tiger knew it and also had a huge advantage going in because he owns that course.

Even the rough was not nearly as penal as most open roughs. Come on, Tiger was heroic, but there is nothing exceptional about this Open win, but for his willingness to suffer to secure it. That, in my opinion, is not a reason for celebration or aduration. The sad thing is that 10 years from now Tiger might be saying the same thing.

Greybeard, Tiger did what no one else in the field did. He recovered from bad shots and resulting double bogeys, he took advantage of what the par 5's offered (how come no one else did? Tiger isn't the longest hitter on tour), he got lucky on occasion (#17 on Saturday), he made the clutch putts when he had to (#18 Sunday and Monday, not even mentioning the two "no brainers" he made for eagle on Saturday). No one else did. And he did it in considerable pain without altering his swing to prevent the anticipated pain. Advil and Alleve are nice, but it just don't work all THAT well. I know, I take them before playing too.

A little poanna in the greens? That drives me nuts here in Smithfield when it shows up. It makes putts bounce and go off course in a very unpredictable way.

All the other players, especially Phil, said the course was "tough but fair". Usually the US Open courses are tough and NOT fair. In the respect, the PGA put the possibility of low scores out there, but none of the contenders could put up a number. Must have been the inherent pressure of playing in the US Open. Tiger didn't yield; he did what everyone expected - he hung tough and made the shots and putts needed to win. No one else did. How many players, in any sport, live up to fans' expectations almost every time? If you use one hand, you'll have fingers left over. I count Tiger, Michael (it almost hurts to type that), and, um, I'm at a loss to name number 3.

Injury and pain aside, it was a good win. Include those factors and it is an amazing win.

My friend, I don't think you have a leg to stand on! ;)

[greybeard]

Greybeard, Tiger did what no one else in the field did. He recovered from bad shots and resulting double bogeys, he took advantage of what the par 5's offered (how come no one else did? Tiger isn't the longest hitter on tour), he got lucky on occasion (#17 on Saturday), he made the clutch putts when he had to (#18 Sunday and Monday, not even mentioning the two "no brainers" he made for eagle on Saturday). No one else did. And he did it in considerable pain without altering his swing to prevent the anticipated pain. Advil and Alleve are nice, but it just don't work all THAT well. I know, I take them before playing too.

A little poanna in the greens? That drives me nuts here in Smithfield when it shows up. It makes putts bounce and go off course in a very unpredictable way.

All the other players, especially Phil, said the course was "tough but fair". Usually the US Open courses are tough and NOT fair. In the respect, the PGA put the possibility of low scores out there, but none of the contenders could put up a number. Must have been the inherent pressure of playing in the US Open. Tiger didn't yield; he did what everyone expected - he hung tough and made the shots and putts needed to win. No one else did. How many players, in any sport, live up to fans' expectations almost every time? If you use one hand, you'll have fingers left over. I count Tiger, Michael (it almost hurts to type that), and, um, I'm at a loss to name number 3.

Injury and pain aside, it was a good win. Include those factors and it is an amazing win.

My friend, I don't think you have a leg to stand on! ;)

Well said, all but the part about the injury and pain. That made it fit the epic myth we are all born with, but is destructive of sport, in my opinion.

The last putt on Sunday took my breath away. From what I can see, those type cross green putts especially at the lower end of a green that everyone all day walked through, with the sun I think setting I think on the far side of the green, is different than a front to back or back to front putt. Amazing!

However, by the time that Steven and I were watching the match DVRed on Monday, I wished that he would just stop. Not what I want my image of the game, my image of the greatest athlete I have ever seen to be. It just isn't. I'd have liked that guy better if he had just said, "I've had enough; my leg is hurt and the right thing to do is retire." Then this would have been the greatest open performance of all time.

[JasonEvans]

I want to thank Greybeard for inspiring a conversation and keeping a worthy thread alive and active. But, in the end it comes down to this: Either--

a) Greybread is right or
b) Everyone else is right

By "everyone else" I don't just mean everyone on this board. I mean EVERYONE who has written anything about this or commented on it in any way. I mean all the professional golfers and doctors interviewed today, all the sports commentators, all the fans... EVERYONE.

We are left to conlcude that Greybread is either smarter and more observant than EVERYONE or... well... you can reach your own conclusion ;)

Again, I appreciate Greybread's arguments and especially hearing about how he thinks Tiger should retire rather than try to rehab and become healthy again. Thanks for keeping things lively oh-Grey-one!

--Jason "when it comes to sports injuries Dr Greybeard always has an opinion ;) " Evans

[pfrduke]

However, by the time that Steven and I were watching the match DVRed on Monday, I wished that he would just stop. Not what I want my image of the game, my image of the greatest athlete I have ever seen to be. It just isn't. I'd have liked that guy better if he had just said, "I've had enough; my leg is hurt and the right thing to do is retire." Then this would have been the greatest open performance of all time.

I'll say it - I risk the chance that my leg would have to be in a cast for a year, or two, if it meant winning a U.S. Open. As you mentioned, athletes play hurt all the time, both the professional and amateur variety. It is a matter of personal preference the amount of pain we're willing to endure and the consequences we're willing to risk to a) play and b) win.

[greybeard]

Neve said Tiger should retire, just that he should respect his body, and, in doing so, the essence of sport. The notion that a game in which you call fouls on yourself should be played injured does violence to my understanding of the game of golf, its history, and what it stands for, or stood for.

This was not Arnie vs Jack, or Jack vs Trevino, or Jack vs Watson, or Watson vs the guy in the booth. It was the greatest player in the history of the world on his home course struggling because of injury to beat a 45 year old golfer who hasn't won anything in 6 years and who in the end didn't seem to want it, certainly not the way Tiger did.

Call it great if you want but you are only glorifying the notion of playing with a freakin broken leg, which I don't glorify. I think it is unwise, foolish, and driven by something in Tiger and perhaps his relationship with a guy who was a trained killing machine that is, was, less than ideal.

Be that as it may, we have lost Tiger for at least a year, and time will tell whether the price he paid to win your adoration on this one merits rememberance for its greatness or something else.

In the meantime, Jason Evans either you were listening to different announcers but I heard them question time and again from Friday on why Tiger was doing this and they all but said it was difficult to watch. They were concerned for him, what drove him to do it, and were uncomfortable watching, even while they were in awe of his strength of will and skill. The two can coexist at one time.

The industry that covers sports 24/7 has the moral fiber of a wash cloth. Like my boy T says, they're all yodelers. Even the newspapers now. Just this last week, while he was firing reporters, columnists and editors left and right, the new owner of one of the great papers of all time, the LA something or other said that he thought that the editors should no longer drive the bus of journalism but rather newspaper content should be decided by the ad salesmen.

So pardon me if I don't flinch when you point out that the talking heads don't agree with me. If they had an original thought not tied to how they were going to pay for that Beemer and Prius at the same time I might think differently. Actually, not.

He did make a lot of putts though. Partially impressive were the right to lefters that he made. See, on those, you have to shift through that left knee, real slow like. That's tough. How do I know? Please.

[edensquad]

^^^^^^^^ "A tale..... full of sound and fury signifying nothing." ~William Shakespeare~

With any luck at all, we'll soon get a treatise on why Tiger should have played soccer to prepare for the U.S. Open (sorry, bad Rick, bad Rick, lol).

[snowdenscold]

This was not Arnie vs Jack, or Jack vs Trevino, or Jack vs Watson, or Watson vs the guy in the booth. It was the greatest player in the history of the world on his home course struggling because of injury to beat a 45 year old golfer who hasn't won anything in 6 years and who in the end didn't seem to want it, certainly not the way Tiger did.

Sure, but on the other side of the coin - it's not like they went out there to play 1 on 1 for the weekend. They both did happen to beat out the other 77 of golf's finest...

[JasonEvans]

Neve said Tiger should retire, just that he should respect his body, and, in doing so, the essence of sport.

Sorry, I thought that when you said this --


I'd have liked that guy better if he had just said, "I've had enough; my leg is hurt and the right thing to do is retire." Then this would have been the greatest open performance of all time.

--you meant that he should retire from golf. I now see that you might have meant "retire" from that one tournament. My bad.



--Jason "Like I said, GreyB, you are smarter than all the rest of us" Evans

[budwom]

At the risk of being cyber assaulted, I have to say that Greybeard has raised some legitimate issues.

I think Woods is fabulous, and his achievement at the Open was remarkable. But there has clearly been a double dose of hype regarding his injuries.

Everyone is marvelling about how he won WITH A TORN ACL!!!.....but I am 100% certain that it was a partial tear, and partial tears are not at all in the same league with fully torn ACLs, which is what most people think of when torn ACLs are mentioned. In fact, today's AP article quoted Woods as saying that when he "tore" his ACL, it really didn't bother him. Had it been a full tear, rest assured it would have bothered him.

I partially tore an ACL some years ago, and it was slightly painful. It healed by itself, as Woods' injury would have had he rested it like the doctors recommended.

As Greybeard mentioned, with a partial tear you have stability, and that's what matters.

The double (double!) stress fracture is a similar item. Annoying, but not exactly Lazarus material. In fact, stress fractures often don't even show up on X-rays, and generally can be healed with a few weeks of rest. A number of Duke hoopsters have played through some painful stress fractures and lived to tell about it.

Clearly Woods fought through some pain during the Open, and given the level of competition, his win was indeed extraordinary, but I do think it's fair to say that the Hype-O-meter has been fully engaged here.

I watched a great deal of the tournament, and had to note that Woods didn't seem to be in any extraordinary pain...especially when he was hitting good shots.

In fact, Retief Goossen was quoted last night as saying that Woods' hobbling and wincing seemed to accompany poor shots, and not so much his good shots.

Again, playing with any moderate amount of knee pain and winning the Open is a fabulous achievement, but I do think there has been a Jerry Bruckenheimer element to the coverage of the issue. Doug Ferguson's AP article on Sunday referred to Tiger as playing in "unbearable pain." Isn't that a bit over the top?

[DUKIECB]

I can see the detractors points in that the media is over-hyping the injury. However, the most amazing thing to me is not the fact that he played through the injury, but he won the U.S. Open after not playing a competitive round of golf in over two months!
Heck, he didn't even start practicing until a few weeks before the tournament started. Injury or not, this is remarkable. I am a huge Tiger fan and have learned over the years not to doubt him, but I would have bet good money he could not win a tournament, not to mention the Open, without playing competitively or practicing for two months.
Then you throw the injury on top of that, however severe it may have been, and it is that much more remarkable.
I think we just witnessed one of the most astonishing events is sports history this weekend.

[blazindw]

Everyone is marvelling about how he won WITH A TORN ACL!!!.....but I am 100% certain that it was a partial tear, and partial tears are not at all in the same league with fully torn ACLs, which is what most people think of when torn ACLs are mentioned. In fact, today's AP article quoted Woods as saying that when he "tore" his ACL, it really didn't bother him. Had it been a full tear, rest assured it would have bothered him.


http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=3450453

It was a full tear. No one has used the word partial tear. He also turned down surgery twice, once last year and once this year, because he hoped that rest at the end of last year and the arthoscopic surgery this year would help him get through the year intact (This is not in the article, but Andy North was saying this on Sportscenter yesterday evening).

You can tell he was hurting...bracing himself to get out of sand traps, grimacing on many shots (not just the ones he hit badly, like Retief Goosen "halfheartedly" suggested). He didn't dial it down like many people would after tearing their ACL, relaxing a bit more or taking it easy even without surgery. No, Tiger not only continued playing professional golf, he won 9 out of 10 tournaments, then got his knee scoped, got a double stress fracture while rehabbing, and with his knee and leg killing him, walked over 20 miles in 5 days while playing 91 holes of golf against the best in the world, and beat them all to win arguably the toughest major in golf. People have gone their whole careers with 2 good legs and never won the U.S. Open. Tiger did it with one good leg.

[Shammrog]

You are correct - it was a full tear. Tiger tried to go the rehab route; basically playing without an ACL and using rehab/exercise to stabilize the knee. This led to the stress fractures and other problems, so he finally decided to sacrifice the season for the long-term benefit of getting his knee truly 100%.

The knee has apparently given him various troubles for at least 5 years. Now, per an interview with his swing coach, finally having this surgery should finally make him 100% for the first time in a long time.

[greybeard]

You are correct - it was a full tear. Tiger tried to go the rehab route; basically playing without an ACL and using rehab/exercise to stabilize the knee. This led to the stress fractures and other problems, so he finally decided to sacrifice the season for the long-term benefit of getting his knee truly 100%.

The knee has apparently given him various troubles for at least 5 years. Now, per an interview with his swing coach, finally having this surgery should finally make him 100% for the first time in a long time.

I have played golf (well, could be debateable) with two torn through and through ACLs for years. My understanding, while ACLs have some minor rotational responsibilities, those you can go without. What they really do is keep the Tibia from flying foreward when momentum goes in that direction. The hamstring, which is connected to the Tibia and the Femur can be trained to take over that responsibility. I should know; been there, done that.

Now, what causes a knee to become destablized when an ACL is torn such that surgery is required I do not think has anything to do with whether there is anything left of the ACL. I could be mistaken.

The stress fracture business to me is more troublesome. I have heard of stress fractures of little bones in the feet and ankles. I have never heard of such a thing in a major weight bearing bone like a Tibia. Combined with the ACL tear, a knee for two surgical interventions for degenerating cartelege, it would seem that glorifying Tiger's decision to disregard his doctors does a disservice to the game of golf, unless you place golf on the same low shelf as football, which, pardon me, is no longer a sport.

Have teenagers disregarded the advice of orthopods to cool it, sometimes forever, because of serious damage that has been done to their legs or other extremities and what it portends to the future, sure. Happens every day. I have some personal experience with that. Nope, not my son or daughter. Believe me or not, it is a stupid choice. Just ask those crippled 40 year old former football players, who made similar choices to Tiger's.

For a famulously wealthy, unbelieveable successful, ridiculously smart (you fill in the rest) 30-something to do so is, well, to me very sad. Somebody please explain how it can be seen in other terms.

[Udaman]

Boy, those who are playing the "he only grimaced during bad shots" really must be Tiger haters. The fact is simple. He played with a torn ACL and two stress fractures, and only a few weeks after having surgery to remove cartlidge, and with no practice. And he beat the best players in the world.

This might be one of the greatest sporting accomplishments we have ever witnessed.

And he grimaced plenty of times after great shots (see his tee on 18 in the playoff). He also walked over 20 miles during the weekend on a healing knee, with a torn ACL and stress fracture. The guy is simply amazing.

[Shammrog]

I have played golf (well, could be debateable) with two torn through and through ACLs for years. My understanding, while ACLs have some minor rotational responsibilities, those you can go without. What they really do is keep the Tibia from flying foreward when momentum goes in that direction. The hamstring, which is connected to the Tibia and the Femur can be trained to take over that responsibility. I should know; been there, done that.

Now, what causes a knee to become destablized when an ACL is torn such that surgery is required I do not think has anything to do with whether there is anything left of the ACL. I could be mistaken.

The stress fracture business to me is more troublesome. I have heard of stress fractures of little bones in the feet and ankles. I have never heard of such a thing in a major weight bearing bone like a Tibia. Combined with the ACL tear, a knee for two surgical interventions for degenerating cartelege, it would seem that glorifying Tiger's decision to disregard his doctors does a disservice to the game of golf, unless you place golf on the same low shelf as football, which, pardon me, is no longer a sport.

Have teenagers disregarded the advice of orthopods to cool it, sometimes forever, because of serious damage that has been done to their legs or other extremities and what it portends to the future, sure. Happens every day. I have some personal experience with that. Nope, not my son or daughter. Believe me or not, it is a stupid choice. Just ask those crippled 40 year old former football players, who made similar choices to Tiger's.

For a famulously wealthy, unbelieveable successful, ridiculously smart (you fill in the rest) 30-something to do so is, well, to me very sad. Somebody please explain how it can be seen in other terms.

I don't think the US Open per se did any more damage. And, I get the impression that the decision not to do ACL surgery last year (when he tore it) was a toss-up. Rehab *might* work; but would require a missed year. Apparently it didn't work, so Tiger is biting the bullet for his long-term future. I don't know enough about the medicine to know if it was smart for him to try going without surgery, but as you said you CAN play golf (or other sports, at at least some level) without it.

Idle thought - someone mentioned that Tiger was not one of the long drivers (very top) on tour. This may be true for averages, but Tiger is superb at all facets of the game - high in both distance and accuracy, while not trading one for the other. He actually is probably physically the strongest player on tour (benches 300 lbs.), and has hit in practice a drive as long as 428 yards(!). Even with the bum knee, one of his drives in the Open was 360 yards.

[greybeard]

Boy, those who are playing the "he only grimaced during bad shots" really must be Tiger haters. The fact is simple. He played with a torn ACL and two stress fractures, and only a few weeks after having surgery to remove cartlidge, and with no practice. And he beat the best players in the world.

This might be one of the greatest sporting accomplishments we have ever witnessed.

And he grimaced plenty of times after great shots (see his tee on 18 in the playoff). He also walked over 20 miles during the weekend on a healing knee, with a torn ACL and stress fracture. The guy is simply amazing.

I've walked much more with both ACLs torn; Paulus played an entire season with a stress fracture in his foot. The field sucked (played sucky) and he has won at that course almost 70 percent of the time he has played it as a pro.

He won because he is Tiger, the best player in the world. He made some putts and a chip that no one could have dreamed he'd make. He's Tiger, in this instance with an encylopedic knowledge of the greens on this course like no other competitor out there but Phil, whose putting knowledge was worthless because he took his driver out of his bag (great decision Phil). With that knowledge, making some of those incomprehensible putts became a little more comprehensible. Getting the speed right on a putt that you are certain about as to line (these guys hit the line they want, or at least Tiger does) is less an accomplishment than his doing so on other Open courses. Saying otherwise is nonsense.

There was pathos out there aplenty. Rocco was the good humored foil to Tiger's heroic effort. I saw that movie already, only Brian Picallo was dying and Sayers was doing the winning. It plays better when the guy is dying. Both scenerios to me are the same, however. That would be sad.

[budwom]

I've always liked Tiger. My favorite golfer by far, and Sunday/Monday were the only days I've (mildly) rooted against him, only because Mediate is such a likeable character.

He's smart, skilled, likeable, and very possibly the best golfer who ever lived.

Which is precisely why I think the ultra hype is so very unnecessary.
Sportswriters love to pile on the hype bandwagon, largely because they aren't a very bright lot (this I know because I used to be one of them).
Gutsiest performance ever. Maybe. Some people thought that about Mateen Cleaves, too.

I think what got me going on this (quite possibly overboard, I'll concede) was a particular sequence I saw about four times on Sunday.

We get the Tiger's dad ad (Father's Day, of course) talking about how his kid is the mentally toughest player ever, because Dad would stand behind him and drop a bag of clubs during Tiger's downswing. Good story. Touching.

About 15 seconds later we're back to live action, and Stevie Williams is bleating "I can hear that microphone! I hear hear that mike!!"

One Tiger's Dad ad later and Williams is bitching about "I can hear those cameras! Hold the cameras!"

At least three times between the 13th and 18ths holes we got the tough guy ad followed by Stevie bitching and Tiger glaring.

I'm sorry, but I really have a problem reconciling those two things.

Hopefully Tiger will make a swift recovery and continue his winning ways. In the meantime I hope the press finds something else to hype, and perhaps they have: last night on Around the Horn they actually discussed the question of whether this Celtic team was "one of the greatest teams ever.'
Really. Thank God the Hawks didn't beat them in that seventh game. One sports moron (they actually pay this guy) said that Larry Bird couldn't average 20 points a game in today's NBA.

[budwom]

You are correct - it was a full tear. Tiger tried to go the rehab route; basically playing without an ACL and using rehab/exercise to stabilize the knee. This led to the stress fractures and other problems, so he finally decided to sacrifice the season for the long-term benefit of getting his knee truly 100%.

The knee has apparently given him various troubles for at least 5 years. Now, per an interview with his swing coach, finally having this surgery should finally make him 100% for the first time in a long time.


Several of you are insisting this is a full tear. Do you have a source for this? I am admittedly assuming it was a partial tear, because his doctors told him it would eventually heal if he treated it properly.....I am reasonably confident that full tears don't heal themselves, but partial tears definitely can.
I'll definitely change my tune is someone can show me a reliable source citing a full tear.

[Clipsfan]

Just having some fun here with comments I thought were interesting...


He did make a lot of putts though. Partially impressive were the right to lefters that he made. See, on those, you have to shift through that left knee, real slow like. That's tough. How do I know? Please.

Maybe you'd putt better if you weren't shifting through your knee and stayed fairly still instead :)


The Pines just ain't the challenge that you suggest, and the field, well, right now there isn't any.

I think it's interesting that you say that there is no field when the players are the best now that they've ever been (helped by technology in part) due to the massive interest and money in the sport. It's even more interesting when you call Torrey Pines an easy course during the open when only three people shot even par or better (and no one better than 1 under).

[Clipsfan]

I don't think the US Open per se did any more damage. And, I get the impression that the decision not to do ACL surgery last year (when he tore it) was a toss-up. Rehab *might* work; but would require a missed year. Apparently it didn't work, so Tiger is biting the bullet for his long-term future. I don't know enough about the medicine to know if it was smart for him to try going without surgery, but as you said you CAN play golf (or other sports, at at least some level) without it.

Idle thought - someone mentioned that Tiger was not one of the long drivers (very top) on tour. This may be true for averages, but Tiger is superb at all facets of the game - high in both distance and accuracy, while not trading one for the other. He actually is probably physically the strongest player on tour (benches 300 lbs.), and has hit in practice a drive as long as 428 yards(!). Even with the bum knee, one of his drives in the Open was 360 yards.

Tiger's got the ability to hit the ball as long as almost anyone on the tour (some guys do hit it a LONG way) but his accuracy isn't great. He's in the middle of the pack in terms of fairways hit (I looked it up the other day, around 57%). His driving stats in general aren't great, but it's his ability to hit greens and putt that are otherwordly. If I remember, he was #1 in putting this season and #4 in GIR. Just sick to not only hit greens but sink the putts.

I think that his driving distance is negatively impacted by all the stingers he hits off the tee. I think those are also factored into his distance (and help his accuracy of course).

[blazindw]

Several of you are insisting this is a full tear. Do you have a source for this? I am admittedly assuming it was a partial tear, because his doctors told him it would eventually heal if he treated it properly.....I am reasonably confident that full tears don't heal themselves, but partial tears definitely can.
I'll definitely change my tune is someone can show me a reliable source citing a full tear.


I'll refer you to the link in my post as one example. Note that I did a quick google search of articles pertaining to this, and not one source indicates that it was only a partial tear, they all say that the ACL was torn. Most of them also go on to state that Tiger had reconstructive surgery on his ACL. Partial ACK tears do not require reconstructive surgery.


http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=3450453

It was a full tear. No one has used the word partial tear. He also turned down surgery twice, once last year and once this year, because he hoped that rest at the end of last year and the arthoscopic surgery this year would help him get through the year intact (This is not in the article, but Andy North was saying this on Sportscenter yesterday evening).

You can tell he was hurting...bracing himself to get out of sand traps, grimacing on many shots (not just the ones he hit badly, like Retief Goosen "halfheartedly" suggested). He didn't dial it down like many people would after tearing their ACL, relaxing a bit more or taking it easy even without surgery. No, Tiger not only continued playing professional golf, he won 9 out of 10 tournaments, then got his knee scoped, got a double stress fracture while rehabbing, and with his knee and leg killing him, walked over 20 miles in 5 days while playing 91 holes of golf against the best in the world, and beat them all to win arguably the toughest major in golf. People have gone their whole careers with 2 good legs and never won the U.S. Open. Tiger did it with one good leg.

[Clipsfan]

last night on Around the Horn they actually discussed the question of whether this Celtic team was "one of the greatest teams ever.'
Really. Thank God the Hawks didn't beat them in that seventh game. One sports moron (they actually pay this guy) said that Larry Bird couldn't average 20 points a game in today's NBA.

Or Cleveland in the 7th as well...

One game/series doesn't make the greatest team ever. Lakers were heavy favorites to win the title. I don't know any "greatest teams" who were serious underdogs.

[Clipsfan]

He actually is probably physically the strongest player on tour (benches 300 lbs.), and has hit in practice a drive as long as 428 yards(!). Even with the bum knee, one of his drives in the Open was 360 yards.

One of my colleagues brought up the question of whether Tiger dopes. Could be steroids, could be HGH, but Tiger has definitely bulked up a lot. I know he's famous for the amount he works out, but does he take something to help him recover and allow the daily regimen? I said no, but I'm not so sure.

[budwom]

I'll refer you to the link in my post as one example. Note that I did a quick google search of articles pertaining to this, and not one source indicates that it was only a partial tear, they all say that the ACL was torn. Most of them also go on to state that Tiger had reconstructive surgery on his ACL. Partial ACK tears do not require reconstructive surgery.

Not to be argumentative, but neither your link nor any other I've seen has called it a complete tear, either. Woods says he tore it last year, it didn't bother him much, he won a bunch of tournaments, and his doctor told him to take it easy on the knee.

Would a doctor really recommend that a young world class golfer continue his career with a fully torn ACL? Given how much torque Tiger puts on his knee with each swing, I find this very, very hard to believe.

[cato]

One of my colleagues brought up the question of whether Tiger dopes. Could be steroids, could be HGH, but Tiger has definitely bulked up a lot. I know he's famous for the amount he works out, but does he take something to help him recover and allow the daily regimen? I said no, but I'm not so sure.

Bulked up since when? He has always been strong (he can bench more than FDA!). Of course, until this past weekend, I've never been to a tournament to see him in person, so I'm only going off images on TV.

[budwom]

He definitely bulked up this past season (it was mentioned numerous times by TV commentators) though I assume he has the good sense to avoid means such as steroids...if his head starts to inflate like Barry Bonds' head I'll reconsider.

[greybeard]

Just having some fun here with comments I thought were interesting...



Maybe you'd putt better if you weren't shifting through your knee and stayed fairly still instead :)



I think it's interesting that you say that there is no field when the players are the best now that they've ever been (helped by technology in part) due to the massive interest and money in the sport. It's even more interesting when you call Torrey Pines an easy course during the open when only three people shot even par or better (and no one better than 1 under).

No one ever stands still. Standing still is a myth. You are still when you are dead. If you are standing, you are not dead and you are coming in and out of a position of stability to various positions of relative degrees of instability all the time, every single moment.

If the momentum of the putter head swings the arms and the shoulders, where does the momentum stop? The Earth would be the answer, the Earth.

Swinging the putter head must produce a shift of momentum in the pelvis from where the right hip socket is located to where the left hip socket is located. No other possibility. And, if there is a shift there, you will feel it in your left knee, especially if you putt like Tiger who likes to release the putter head, especially on right to left putts.

You feel it in your left knee unless, unlike Tiger, you don't sway. If you sway, than the fulcrum moves produces a swing that is unlike a pendullum, which is what the pros try for.

If you try for a pendullum swing and have a "bad" left knee you will feel the shift of momentum. If there is crummy stuff floating around in the knee, or the knee is a tad more unstable than most, you will feel it even more.

On the other hand, if you are swaying some, and there is a lot of action going on in your body, you will not be able to discern subtle differences. Put a couple ounce weight on your shoulder you feel it; add a couple ounce weight to a 200 lb barbell and it will not be noticeable.

Hope that answers your first point.

Now for the second: do you think that this was Wing Foot, Olympia, Sawgrass, Peeble Beach, Pinehurst 2, the Black Course on da Island? If so, check out the ratings of difficult courses; let me know when and where you find Torrey listed. Not one pro complained out the course being too penal. When was the last time that happened during an Open?

Tiger played this Open because he owns the course, because it was closing a loop for him, and I believe because of something I think not too wholesome in his glorified relationship with his old man. Even great men make errors.

[cato]

He definitely bulked up this past season (it was mentioned numerous times by TV commentators) though I assume he has the good sense to avoid means such as steroids...if his head starts to inflate like Barry Bonds' head I'll reconsider.

Pictures anyone? It's always hard to tell, because he wears baggy clothes, but I thought he had a bit of a gut. Could be he's bulked up in the same way that I have over the past year.

[Shammrog]

Several of you are insisting this is a full tear. Do you have a source for this? I am admittedly assuming it was a partial tear, because his doctors told him it would eventually heal if he treated it properly.....I am reasonably confident that full tears don't heal themselves, but partial tears definitely can.
I'll definitely change my tune is someone can show me a reliable source citing a full tear.

Yes - his swing coach said this morning on ESPN radio that it was a full tear.

[Shammrog]

Bulked up since when? He has always been strong (he can bench more than FDA!). Of course, until this past weekend, I've never been to a tournament to see him in person, so I'm only going off images on TV.

He has added about 30 lbs. over the last few years. Came in at a little over 160, now is a little over 190. No indication of roids; 30 lbs. is very doable. If Tiger came in at 250 solid muscle in a year or two, that would be suspect.

Supposedly (still) has a 30 inch waist; so no gut - its just the clothes.

[killerleft]

My personal experience: I had sciatic nerve trouble so bad I would frequently double over at work. As the pain was progressing to this point, I noticed that when golfing and carrying my bag on my left shoulder, the pain running down my right leg would diminish dramatically. So I kept playing, despite getting a pretty good jolt of pain whenever I swung at the ball. Long story short, I had my two best rounds at this particular course (Sourwood, close to Snow Camp, NC). During the month or more that the worst part of my problem was bugging me, I had a 73 and a 74. My average there was maybe 80-81.

I have no idea if Tiger's pain was worse or not than mine. But I do know that I would have put up with the pain if I had a chance (ha) to win the US Open.

[budwom]

Naw, he actually built up his arms a fair amount. I did a quick Google search using Tiger Woods Weight Gain and found several articles, with pictures, showing El Tigre working out with some big weight machines in his house.
He's definitely worked on his upper body strength, and the announcers in one tournament I watched earlier this year commented at length about how he'd bulked up. Didn't find any pictures of him with syringes or vials of HGH....

[greybeard]

Not to be argumentative, but neither your link nor any other I've seen has called it a complete tear, either. Woods says he tore it last year, it didn't bother him much, he won a bunch of tournaments, and his doctor told him to take it easy on the knee.

Would a doctor really recommend that a young world class golfer continue his career with a fully torn ACL? Given how much torque Tiger puts on his knee with each swing, I find this very, very hard to believe.

ACLs do not contribute meaningfully to rotational stability, if at all. Their lone job is to keep the lower leg from moving forward and disjointing from the Tibia. Rotation is not a factor in an ACL tear. As I've stated, strong hammies that are trained to fire to retain stability challenges (you balance on one of those boards on a ball or on a tramp) and you can do fine with no ACL.

I am not sure where you get your information regarding partial and full tears. I have never heard that a complete tear needs to be repaired if the knee is not destablized. If a complete tear means that the knee is destablized, I have never heard that. My understanding is that your premise is incorrect.

I do not know that a partial ligament tear can regenerate or that it can be repaired. If so, and playing put him at risk of a through and through tear any more than simply walking (see recent articles in the NY Times and Washington Post on ACL tears in women reporting that torque is NOT the cause of such tears) then one would have to question Tiger's sanity. I don't think that he put himself at greater risk with regard to his ACL, at least no more than anyone with an ACL deficite would. That risk, you have a knee that has more movement in it than you would like, once such movement begins it can create momentum that gets put on the wrong vector and boom, a destablized knee requiring reconstructive surgery. However, that risk exists as long as you are active.

As I said earlier, my guess is that the period of inactivity that the stress fractures demand has caused Tiger to decide to take a lot of time off and get his knee, Tibia, and head in the best shape possible. During that time, given that he is an extremely active man even outside of golf argues in favor of reconstructing the ACL.

I'd love to hear from some docs, but my concern is those stress fractures. That is very worrisome; odd place to be having stress fractures. If caused by the torque Tiger puts into his swing that could be career threatening.

[budwom]

Let's put it this way: if a high school athlete completely tears an ACL, they almost always have it repaired. I know a dozen or more people who've had this operation. I simply find it unbelievable that one of the very top athletes in the entire world would forego having his completely torn ACL repaired, given the importance of his knees to his skill set. That's why I remain a bit skeptical, but we've beaten this thing to death so it's probably best to drop it.

As for my information about partial tears fixing/strengthening themselves, I get that info from my own case. I had a partial tear. It hurt a fair amount. I rested it. It got better.

[Shammrog]

ACLs do not contribute meaningfully to rotational stability, if at all. Their lone job is to keep the lower leg from moving forward and disjointing from the Tibia. Rotation is not a factor in an ACL tear. As I've stated, strong hammies that are trained to fire to retain stability challenges (you balance on one of those boards on a ball or on a tramp) and you can do fine with no ACL.

I am not sure where you get your information regarding partial and full tears. I have never heard that a complete tear needs to be repaired if the knee is not destablized. If a complete tear means that the knee is destablized, I have never heard that. My understanding is that your premise is incorrect.

I do not know that a partial ligament tear can regenerate or that it can be repaired. If so, and playing put him at risk of a through and through tear any more than simply walking (see recent articles in the NY Times and Washington Post on ACL tears in women reporting that torque is NOT the cause of such tears) then one would have to question Tiger's sanity. I don't think that he put himself at greater risk with regard to his ACL, at least no more than anyone with an ACL deficite would. That risk, you have a knee that has more movement in it than you would like, once such movement begins it can create momentum that gets put on the wrong vector and boom, a destablized knee requiring reconstructive surgery. However, that risk exists as long as you are active.

As I said earlier, my guess is that the period of inactivity that the stress fractures demand has caused Tiger to decide to take a lot of time off and get his knee, Tibia, and head in the best shape possible. During that time, given that he is an extremely active man even outside of golf argues in favor of reconstructing the ACL.

I'd love to hear from some docs, but my concern is those stress fractures. That is very worrisome; odd place to be having stress fractures. If caused by the torque Tiger puts into his swing that could be career threatening.

His swing coach said that the stress fractures were directly cause by the rehab/training he did for the ACL and the surgery of 2 months ago, FWIW.

[greybeard]

Well, it's not exactly the skinny. You read it here before. But, you might want to check out Sally Jenkin's column in Today's Washington Post, The Impatient Patient, to get some insight into what was and was not causing the pain.

Turns out it was the stress fractures, which by the way Sally reports a longtime sports medicine orthopod she consulted had never heard of happening in the Tibia, ever, that is at least in his 25 years of practice. He guessed that the reference to stress fractures might be to degeneration much more difficult to explain to Joe-the-fan so they used the image of stress fracture.

Anyway, this cannot be good. Why the media continues to glorify this choice, Sally so far is the closest one to at least raise questions about Tiger's judgment in this, requires some explaining, at least in my mind. They show more concern for horses, for g-d's sake. Beemers shoud be made of sterner stuff, if you ask me. :(

[mr. synellinden]

ACLs do not contribute meaningfully to rotational stability, if at all. Their lone job is to keep the lower leg from moving forward and disjointing from the Tibia. Rotation is not a factor in an ACL tear. As I've stated, strong hammies that are trained to fire to retain stability challenges (you balance on one of those boards on a ball or on a tramp) and you can do fine with no ACL.

I am not sure where you get your information regarding partial and full tears. I have never heard that a complete tear needs to be repaired if the knee is not destablized. If a complete tear means that the knee is destablized, I have never heard that. My understanding is that your premise is incorrect.

I do not know that a partial ligament tear can regenerate or that it can be repaired. If so, and playing put him at risk of a through and through tear any more than simply walking (see recent articles in the NY Times and Washington Post on ACL tears in women reporting that torque is NOT the cause of such tears) then one would have to question Tiger's sanity. I don't think that he put himself at greater risk with regard to his ACL, at least no more than anyone with an ACL deficite would. That risk, you have a knee that has more movement in it than you would like, once such movement begins it can create momentum that gets put on the wrong vector and boom, a destablized knee requiring reconstructive surgery. However, that risk exists as long as you are active.

As I said earlier, my guess is that the period of inactivity that the stress fractures demand has caused Tiger to decide to take a lot of time off and get his knee, Tibia, and head in the best shape possible. During that time, given that he is an extremely active man even outside of golf argues in favor of reconstructing the ACL.

I'd love to hear from some docs, but my concern is those stress fractures. That is very worrisome; odd place to be having stress fractures. If caused by the torque Tiger puts into his swing that could be career threatening.

I had ACL reconstruction on my left knee and consequently know a lot about the way the knee works and ACL injuries. The ACL DOES contribute to rotational stability. In fact, that is one of its primary functions. (See, http://www.arthroscopy.com/sp05001.htm). An excerpt:

There are two cruciate ligaments located in the center of the knee joint. The anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) and the posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) are the major stabilizing ligaments of the knee. In figure 4, on the lateral view, the posterior cruciate ligament prevents the femur from sliding forward on the tibia (or the tibia from sliding backwards on the femur). In the medial view, the anterior cruciate liagement prevents the femur from sliding backwards on the tibia (or the tibia sliding forwards on the femur). Most importantly, both of these ligaments stabilize the knee in a rotational fashion. Thus, if one of these ligaments is significantly damaged, the knee will be unstable when planting the foot of the injured extremity and pivoting, causing the knee to buckle and give way.

It is true that strong quadriceps and hamstring muscles can provide additional stability to the knee, and therefore an ACL is not absolutely necessary for the knee to have stability. However, a completely torn ACL will cause major instability in the knee, so much so that the knee can pop out even during normal walking if there is anything that causes imbalance, such as an uneven surface. The danger in this, is that when the knee pops out, there is tremendous grinding on the menisci (or cartilage) which cushions the knee. A lack of cartilage can cause bone to grind on bone, and I believe that is what led to Tiger's stress fractures. He has had surgery(ies) to clean out damaged cartilage in his knee so we know he is missing some cartilage. The microfracture surgery that we've been hearing so much about (Kidd, Oden, Amare, etc.) is essentially a way to regrow cartilage in the knee by drilling into the bone and having it bleed, which eventually produces cartilage growing cells. From wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfracture_surgery:

The surgery is performed through an arthroscopy. The surgeon first removes any calcified cartilage. Tiny fractures are then created in the adjacent bones through the use of an awl. Blood and bone marrow (which contains stem cells) seep out of the fractures, creating a blood clot that releases cartilage-building cells. The microfractures are treated as an injury by the body, which is why the surgery results in new, replacement cartilage.[6] The procedure does have limitations, and is less effective in treating older patients, overweight patients, or cartilage damage that is larger than 2.5 cm.[6]

I wouldn't be surprised if Tiger is having ACL reconstruction surgery and microfracture surgery.

Understanding the full and partial tear issue requires thinking of the ACL like a rope, made up of hundreds if not thousands of individual interlocking fibers. If 30% of those fibers rupture, you've got a partial tear. Now, since they are dispersed throughout the "rope" they are surrounded by healthy tissue with blood flow and those fibers can heal, i.e. reconnect and get back to 100%. Now say you were to take a scissors and cut half the ACL. Those severed fibers would have no way of regenerating because there is no surrounding healthy tissue to "fuel" healing. However, this is not how ACLs tear partially, they do so like the frayed rope example. If you have a complete tear of the ACL or a tear of such a significant % that only minimal healing can occur (it is literally hanging by threads) the only way to restore normal stability is through an ACL reconstruction. They are done in one of three ways which I can explain if anyone is interested. (By the way, I subsequently partially tore the same ACL and it healed to 100% in a few months.)

The bottom line is, I suspect that Tiger suffered a complete tear of his ACL last year while running. I believe this aggravated a cartilage problem that goes back to his first surgery on the knee. I believe he had the second surgery this year to clean out damaged cartilage and to assess the extent of the damage - i.e., to determine if he could play in that condition. Obviously, he was able to play extremely well at the end of last year and the beginning of this year, but I think the toll of his ACL injury was damaging his cartilage and causing more pain (the more cartilage you lose, the more you have bone on bone in the joint - which is extremely painful). When you are missing your ACL, your knee tends to slide or pop out at times. It feels as though the top half of your leg (the femur) pops out of joint, but then the lateral and collateral ligaments, and muscles, help pop it back in. However, as I mentioned, the popping out stresses the cartilage, and I think the last year of playing without an ACL caused Tiger to steadily wear away at his cartilage, such that his rehab on the knee caused stress reactions in the knee due to bone on bone contact/grinding. That's why I think he might be having microfracture surgery as well. It is the cartilage problem that poses long term risks to Tiger, not the ACL.

[greybeard]

"Most importantly, both of these ligaments stabilize the knee in a rotational fashion. Thus, if one of these ligaments is significantly damaged, the knee will be unstable when planting the foot of the injured extremity and pivoting, causing the knee to buckle and give way."

While I have no doubt, as noted earlier, that an ACL or MCL deficit, through and through tear I'm talking about, might cause the knee to completely destablize, it does not always do that. Witness Tiger; anybody see his knee buckle. If you did, I could assure you he would have been looking up at the camera, not standing.

I am also sure that, with the added movement in the knee joint, force interjected at a particular vector can cause the knee to dislocate (my description) which feels like the lower leg is going one direction (left or right) and the other is going the other direction, and cause alot of swelling; the type of thing that happens when you rip a menicus. However, plenty of athletes play all kinds of sports with no ACL. Others are less fortunate.

Might have something to do with the structure of the surfaces, how your bones line up, how you chose to ambulate, etc.

By the way, whenever tissue is sprained, I suppose technically tissue is "torn", damaged. Such minor tissue tears can heal.

But, an ACL that is torn significantly is not going to heal in the sense that your skin heals. It is not going to happen. There will be added movement in that joint that was not there before, which will put your knee at risk, for the rest of time, or until you have a tissue replacement, in which case you are well on your way to having a new knee put in within 20 years or so, in which case, and this is for real, it is a real crapshoot as to whether you will emerge with two legs the same length, no matter how skilled the surgeon.

Tiger should not have played. The media should fully ventilate the risks just like they did for Big Brown's toenail. Who knows, maybe there are some horses who will listen.;)