For all fellow O's fans on this board

[EarlJam]

I know there are quite a few of you, including yours truly. Here is a 2008 preview:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7805470/Preview-2008:-Baltimore-Orioles

-EarlJam, fan of the 2008 World Series Champion Baltimore Orioles (stop laughing)

[BlueDevilBaby]

Buster Olney this morning predicted 60 wins for your O's. I hope none are at the expense of my Nats.;)

[EarlJam]

Buster Olney this morning predicted 60 wins for your O's. I hope none are at the expense of my Nats.;)

Sixty?

Well, maybe so. But I guarantee you we won’t lose our first 21 games this year. The days of Baltimore losing their first 20+ games are OVER baby!!!!

Take THAT to the bank and cash it!

-EarlJam

[wilson]

[thread hijack] Olney also talked this morning about how the Braves are going to be better than billed by many this year. He talked about how even Mike Hampton has looked gangbusters thus far in FL (What's that? I think I just heard Hampton blow out his arm).[/thread hijack]

[snowdenscold]

-EarlJam, fan of the 2008 World Series Champion Baltimore Orioles (stop laughing)

Ahhh, that combined with a 2008 Duke Championship and this could be the best year in a long time.

[TillyGalore]

I know there are quite a few of you, including yours truly. Here is a 2008 preview:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7805470/Preview-2008:-Baltimore-Orioles

-EarlJam, fan of the 2008 World Series Champion Baltimore Orioles (stop laughing)

If the Orioles win the World Series this year, I will buy a round of drinks for the entire board, at a bar of my choosing*.

Tilly, who would LOVE to see the O's dominate the AL East instead of the pesky yanks and sox, but isn't holding her breath.

*covering my arse from all the lawyers on the Board.:p

[pamtar]

I used to go to O's games like 4 times a year when Cal was playing. Now I go once a year - if that. And when I do go its usually to see the Sox or Yanks. I miss the days when the O's were good/decent.

Judging from that line-up (ONE guy hit for .300) i don't think I'll be frequenting Camden much this year either.

[BlueDevilBaby]

I used to go to O's games like 4 times a year when Cal was playing. Now I go once a year - if that. And when I do go its usually to see the Sox or Yanks. I miss the days when the O's were good/decent.

Judging from that line-up (ONE guy hit for .300) i don't think I'll be frequenting Camden much this year either.

Same here. Haven't even been to an O's/Yankees game in a few years with the Nats 15 minutes away. I could root for the O's when Cal was around, but now I really don't want to give Angelos any of my money.

[EarlJam]

I went to see last year's O's play in Toronto. While I enjoyed the city, the O's were just depressing. A very lame product.

God I miss the days of Cal. I wish he'd become a manager or something. They need a Ripken on the field somehow.

-EJ

[TheGodfather]

Same here. Haven't even been to an O's/Yankees game in a few years with the Nats 15 minutes away. I could root for the O's when Cal was around, but now I really don't want to give Angelos any of my money.You have a problem with Angelos but not with the Natspos ownership/management? That may be the worst run franchise in the history of the big three sports. Orioles fans who want Angelos gone don't need to look far to see just how bad it can get.

[allenmurray]

You have a problem with Angelos but not with the Natspos ownership/management? That may be the worst run franchise in the history of the big three sports. Orioles fans who want Angelos gone don't need to look far to see just how bad it can get.

One difference is that Angelos took a competitive, thriving franchise and drove it into the ground. While the Nats ownership is equally poor, they didn't kill something as tradition filled and locally loved as were the Orioles.

[TheGodfather]

One difference is that Angelos took a competitive, thriving franchise and drove it into the ground. While the Nats ownership is equally poor, they didn't kill something as tradition filled and locally loved as were the Orioles.I'll agree about the tradition but the local love couldn't have been too loyal if fans were willing to jump to a much worse franchise like the Natspos when the Orioles hit a losing streak. Cubs fans and Red Sox fans still fill their stadiums and they know a thing or two about losing.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

God help you (and you will need His help!)

They are simply a terrible team. You may well lose 110 games this year. :(
And I am a Mets fan, so I would love to see a strong Oriole team that could beat the yankees.


love
Jim

[EarlJam]

One difference is that Angelos took a competitive, thriving franchise and drove it into the ground. While the Nats ownership is equally poor, they didn't kill something as tradition filled and locally loved as were the Orioles.

In the beginning, wasn't Angelos okay? When they got Davey Johnson to manage and had the team with Alomar, Ripken Jr., Palmario, etc. that went to the ALCS in the late 90s?

What the hell happened?

-EarlJam

[TheGodfather]

In the beginning, wasn't Angelos okay? When they got Davey Johnson to manage and had the team with Alomar, Ripken Jr., Palmario, etc. that went to the ALCS in the late 90s?

What the hell happened?He definitely was. Angelos was the last (and will remain the last now that he's gone) owner to outspend Big George. No other owner had the cajones. You can bet Steinbrenner never forgot that.

After Johnson resigned, a quality replacement was never found. Fan attendence dropped quickly when they weren't winning. Then came Albert Belle's contract and MLB deciding to put another franchise in DC. :(

[watzone]

Oh the memories! That's all we have. I remember standing in a bar on main street in downtoen Derm (Durham) watching the O's win their last World Series over the Phils. Wasn't Rip a rookie?

Grew up in the Triangle where most were for Atlanta or he New Yawk Spankees. Well, they were spankees back then because I am talking about the early seventies when I was a grasshopper. Earl baby! Not Earl Jam, but Earl Weaver! Defense and pitching and lots of wins.

Then came the demon critter called Angelos. What oh what happened to this proud franchise? The O's will not win until he is gone. Some of the most overpayed players and worst moves in the history of MLB for los. It even looks like our recent stars were "roid" boys!

Yep! The O's use to be a helluva organization. Now, they are a laughing stock has been. Trouble is, I stick with my teams thick and thin. But Angelos has made it hard and nobody would blame one for jumping ship to see decent baseball again. That is of course unless it is to the pin stripe guys. I can't tell you how many people I have seen do that.

Yeah. I traveled up there and saw the Birds before Memorial was demolished. They beat Nolan Ryan. Another time there was an amazing comeback versus the Angels and a controversial call of a home run which the Cali's thought was a foul ball and protested the game. Seeing Cal hit two homeruns in one game. Having people ask me to talk so they could make fun of my southern accent. Seeing a hottie flash the opposing teams dugout in right field. Memories.

[watzone]

Angelos ran Davey Johnson (played 2B for the O's) out and they never recovered. He was a good manager.

[TillyGalore]

Angelos ran Davey Johnson (played 2B for the O's) out and they never recovered. He was a good manager.

I agree with this 100%.

[allenmurray]

I'll agree about the tradition but the local love couldn't have been too loyal if fans were willing to jump to a much worse franchise like the Natspos when the Orioles hit a losing streak. Cubs fans and Red Sox fans still fill their stadiums and they know a thing or two about losing.

A lot of those fans were fans from the DC area, who had been fans of the Senators. That made it a lot easier to drift back as they didn't see themselves abandoning thier team, but returning to their old team.

RFK Stadium was the first place I ever saw a ball game. I was thrilled that it was used for the Nats for a few years so I could take my son to see a game in the same stadium where i saw my first.

[EarlJam]

Grew up in the Triangle where most were for Atlanta or he New Yawk Spankees. Well, they were spankees back then because I am talking about the early seventies when I was a grasshopper. Earl baby! Not Earl Jam, but Earl Weaver! Defense and pitching and lots of wins.


Man, you aren't kidding. There was only one Earl Weaver. The Earl of Baltimore!

The O's have lost all things that were entertaining:

-Weaver managing
-Ripken Jr. playing
-Wild Bill Haggy (sp) in the stands (RIP Bill)
-Lowenstein and Proctor announcing (why in the HELL did they break those two up?)
-John Denver singing Country Boy (RIP John)
-Winning

What do we have now? A cool stadium, but a team that's as lousy as our stadium is terrific.

Peter Angelos, may you develop cold sores on your eyeballs and/or nipples.

-Earl of DBR

[BlueDevilBaby]

You have a problem with Angelos but not with the Natspos ownership/management? That may be the worst run franchise in the history of the big three sports. Orioles fans who want Angelos gone don't need to look far to see just how bad it can get.

The Lerners have owned the team for just over a year. They have done nothing but help (along with DC) get a new stadium built and rebuilt the farm system the MLB raided. Don't forget that MLB owned the team for several years while it was in Montreal and for over year after the move to DC. They had no money to spend on payroll, so the team was awful when it arrived (although they gave us some false hope with a great start to the first half of the 2005 season). While the handling of the Frank Robinson firing was rather ugly, I don't see anything to complain about thusfar as a season ticket holder who goes to around 35 to 40 games per season. I don't expect a WS any time soon since the entire system has to be rebuilt, which is Kasten's MO. I don't care how good they are. I am just glad to have a team back in DC, since my very first favorite team was the Senators. If a WS comes, great, if not, I'll continue to go, eat my peanuts, drink my beer and keep score.

[TheGodfather]

The Lerners have owned the team for just over a year. They have done nothing but help (along with DC) get a new stadium built and rebuilt the farm system the MLB raided. Don't forget that MLB owned the team for several years while it was in Montreal and for over year after the move to DC. They had no money to spend on payroll, so the team was awful when it arrived (although they gave us some false hope with a great start to the first half of the 2005 season). While the handling of the Frank Robinson firing was rather ugly, I don't see anything to complain about thusfar as a season ticket holder who goes to around 35 to 40 games per season. I don't expect a WS any time soon since the entire system has to be rebuilt, which is Kasten's MO. I don't care how good they are. I am just glad to have a team back in DC, since my very first favorite team was the Senators. If a WS comes, great, if not, I'll continue to go, eat my peanuts, drink my beer and keep score.I can understand old school Senators fans migrating to the Natspos. I just don't buy anyone switching because they think the Natspos have better ownership.

Even ignoring what the previous owners of the Natspos had done (which included home games in San Juan). I'd definitely put the year and a half that the current ownership has been in charge vs Angelos' decade plus.

Since the current owners took over they let Soriano walk for nothing (when they could have traded him or at the very least resigned him (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/31/AR2006073101378.html)), publicly embarrassed baseball legend and genuine good guy of the game Frank Robinson (O's fans still can't get over Davey resigning a decade ago, the Natspos actually fired Frank after lying to him all season (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/10/AR2007011001470.html), if Angelos had done this to Frank they may have come after Peter with pitchforks), and planned only 1,200 parking spaces (http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0208/499740.html) for their new 41,000 seat stadium (spaces will be ransomed only to fans who buy the highest priced seats).

[mkirsh]

My theory on the O's is that some time after the '97 season when the O's lead the AL east wire to wire but lost to the Indians in the playoffs, Angelos decided that instead of running a $100M+ payroll, he could drastically slash the payroll but still fill the seats since he had essentially a monopoly in a very large market (Baltimore + DC), and by doing this he would come out ahead on profits since the cost decrease outweighed the small revenue loss. Exit Davey Johnson, Alomar, and other high priced players. Now that the Nats are in town attendance is dropping (to reflect the quality of what is on the field), but still doesn't matter to Angelos since he is protected from "loss of value" by MLB and gets a sizeable cut of Nats TV money. Bottom line is Angelos has little financial incentive to put a good team on the field, and therefore does not. After blaming the team's woes on Albert Belle, he now gets to claim small market blues, so don't expect this to change while he's around.

The Nats are by no means an example of all that is right with baseball, but all of the Nat's current issues stem from MLB's ownership, including all stadium issues for which they really held the city hostage. While for personal reasons I would have much preferred the Malek group getting the team, let's give the Lerner's a chance before blaming all problems on them.

[BlueDevilBaby]

While for personal reasons I would have much preferred the Malek group getting the team, let's give the Lerner's a chance before blaming all problems on them.

Thank you for that!

[TheTrain]

Tread lightly here.......John Angelos is a Duke Class of 1989

[TheGodfather]

My theory on the O's is that some time after the '97 season when the O's lead the AL east wire to wire but lost to the Indians in the playoffs, Angelos decided that instead of running a $100M+ payroll, he could drastically slash the payroll but still fill the seats since he had essentially a monopoly in a very large market (Baltimore + DC), and by doing this he would come out ahead on profits since the cost decrease outweighed the small revenue loss. Exit Davey Johnson, Alomar, and other high priced players. Now that the Nats are in town attendance is dropping (to reflect the quality of what is on the field), but still doesn't matter to Angelos since he is protected from "loss of value" by MLB and gets a sizeable cut of Nats TV money. Bottom line is Angelos has little financial incentive to put a good team on the field, and therefore does not. After blaming the team's woes on Albert Belle, he now gets to claim small market blues, so don't expect this to change while he's around.

The Nats are by no means an example of all that is right with baseball, but all of the Nat's current issues stem from MLB's ownership, including all stadium issues for which they really held the city hostage. While for personal reasons I would have much preferred the Malek group getting the team, let's give the Lerner's a chance before blaming all problems on them. Since 97 the Orioles have increased payroll 6 out of the 10 years.

Last year the Orioles had a top ten payroll despite several years of declining attendance and a team being in DC for a couple years.

The first year under the Lerners payroll went from 63 million in 06 to 37 million in 07. Angelos has never cut payroll so drastically. And never to such a low figure. A payroll of 37 mil in a market the size of DC is an embarrassment to baseball. Is it possible you just confused which owner is following your theory?

[BlueDevilBaby]

The Nats cut payroll by getting rid of oft-injured and older talent that was highly paid (Livo, Vidro, Guillen, etc.). Again, Kasten's way is to build up through the farm system, which means younger players at lower salaries, even at the majors level. Many Nats fans were not happy initially because we knew the team would be terrible - I for one was pleasantly surprised by a comparatively good season last year. But many understand that it will take years for the talent to bubble up to the majors and for payroll to rise with the talent, and are willing to be patient. If what worked for Atlanta works for the Nats, I'm willing to wait it out.

As for the comment about Soriano, the Nats did get two draft picks for him - two very highly rated pitchers.

Like I said, it is going to take a few years for the plan to play out. Let's see where we are after 5 years go by.

[mkirsh]

While it's true that the O's did increase payroll in 6 out of 10 years, those increase were less than league average and the other four years saw huge salary cuts. I got these stats from Baseball-reference.com, so don't know how accurate they are but they are at least a starting point:

1997 $63.7M
1998 $77.4M
1999 $80.6M
2000 $82.6M
2001 $58.6M
2002 $47.7M
2003 $53.5M
2004 $44.6M
2005 $78.7M
2006 $72.3M
2007 $78.0M

This is a whopping 2% CAGR on payroll increase over 10 years, compared to MLB average which has increased an average of 8% from $38M in 1997 to $82M in 2007.

Obviously there are a lot of factors that go into payroll decisions and I can't say that I have any real insight into O's decision process. My timeframe from my initial post was off (I had post 97 instead of post 2000), but in any case it was just a theory I had after watching the quality of the team decline year over year. Fortunately as a DC resident I now have some choice about where to spend my baseball entertainment dollar, and for now am giving the Nats the benefit of the doubt since the O's haven't done much for their fans in the last 10 years IMO. Nat's haven't shown much either after a great first half of the inaugural season, but MLB didn't exactly run the franchise in the best fashion and am hoping the Lerners will make significant improvements.

[BlueDevilBaby]

What a win, guys! Way to gut it out and make clutch 3's and FT's at the end. I'm going to have to watch this one again - I'm not quite sure how it happened. Congrats Coach K! Whoooo hoooo!:D

[CameronBornAndBred]

There is one other DBR user out there at least who knew this fellow, he was a good freind of mine who passed last year. Check this out for a trip down memory lane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVoSYXQ1EEM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcrimespace%2Ening%2Ecom%2Fvideo% 2Fvideo%2Fshow%3Fid%3D537324%3AVideo%3A65825). We would not be singing "OH' in Cameron during the National anthem if it weren't for the originator. I had always assumed a Crazie came up with that one, but it must have been a Baltimore transplant. Thanks Bill. (We still took yer Terps :))

[EarlJam]

There is one other DBR user out there at least who knew this fellow, he was a good freind of mine who passed last year. Check this out for a trip down memory lane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVoSYXQ1EEM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcrimespace%2Ening%2Ecom%2Fvideo% 2Fvideo%2Fshow%3Fid%3D537324%3AVideo%3A65825). We would not be singing "OH' in Cameron during the National anthem if it weren't for the originator. I had always assumed a Crazie came up with that one, but it must have been a Baltimore transplant. Thanks Bill. (We still took yer Terps :))

Awesome, thanks for this!

Man. It's bittersweet. Those days were the BEST for an O's fan. They are so incredibly far removed now from the all-around entertaining product they were.

Thanks again.

-Earl "O!" Jam

[TillyGalore]

There is one other DBR user out there at least who knew this fellow, he was a good freind of mine who passed last year. Check this out for a trip down memory lane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVoSYXQ1EEM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcrimespace%2Ening%2Ecom%2Fvideo% 2Fvideo%2Fshow%3Fid%3D537324%3AVideo%3A65825). We would not be singing "OH' in Cameron during the National anthem if it weren't for the originator. I had always assumed a Crazie came up with that one, but it must have been a Baltimore transplant. Thanks Bill. (We still took yer Terps :))

I remember Wild Bill well, and miss his enthusiasm. There must be some Crazies who can help with O's cheers.

[TheGodfather]

As for the comment about Soriano, the Nats did get two draft picks for him - two very highly rated pitchers.Those were compensatory picks because they lost Soriano for nothing. If you consider not refusing MLB mandated compensation as doing something, to each his own. That bar you've set is as low as it can get.
While it's true that the O's did increase payroll in 6 out of 10 years, those increase were less than league average and the other four years saw huge salary cuts.


I got these stats from Baseball-reference.com, so don't know how accurate they are but they are at least a starting point:

1997 $63.7M
1998 $77.4M
1999 $80.6M
2000 $82.6M
2001 $58.6M
2002 $47.7M
2003 $53.5M
2004 $44.6M
2005 $78.7M
2006 $72.3M
2007 $78.0M.

Those figures are way off of what USA Today (http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2007) or even ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=bal) has listed for last season and several other seasons. The USA Today site will not only break down which player made what but also rank all MLB teams by payroll.

It's more like:

97 - $ 54,871,399 2nd
98 - $ 70,408,134 1st
99 - $ 70,818,363 8th
00 - $ 83,141,198 3rd
01 - $ 74,279,540 12th
02 - $ 60,493,487 16th
03 - $ 73,877,500 13th
04 - $ 51,623,333 20th
05 - $ 73,914,333 14th
06 - $ 72,585,582 15th
07 - $ 93,554,808 10th
(source (http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/teamresults.aspx?team=2))

Over those 11 seasons they averaged 10th in baseball. Despite declining attendance in all but one of those seasons.

.
Obviously there are a lot of factors that go into payroll decisions and I can't say that I have any real insight into O's decision process. My timeframe from my initial post was off (I had post 97 instead of post 2000), but in any case it was just a theory I had after watching the quality of the team decline year over year. Fortunately as a DC resident I now have some choice about where to spend my baseball entertainment dollar, and for now am giving the Nats the benefit of the doubt since the O's haven't done much for their fans in the last 10 years IMO. Nat's haven't shown much either after a great first half of the inaugural season, but MLB didn't exactly run the franchise in the best fashion and am hoping the Lerners will make significant improvements.Mr Lerner is personally worth more than a couple Mr Angelos (billions vs millions), has a brand new stadium he didn't have to pay for, has a market much larger than Baltimore's, and has already cut payroll more than Angelos ever did in any year in his decade plus as an owner (It was already a low figure at 67 mil when he came in!).

What is the excuse for cutting payroll to below what even the Pittsburgh Pirates are paying out?

If someone dislikes Angelos as an owner they must really, really be embarrassed by Lerner.

[BlueDevilBaby]

Who cares what payroll is? The Nats were better than 8 teams last year (including the O's and the Pirates) and did not finish in last place in their division. That's improvement over the team that had Soriano on it and Nick Johnson for most of the year. While it would be fun for us fans to have the Lerners "buy" a WS like some teams have done by bringing in the expensive free agents, I am finding, for a change, that watching the development of, for example, Ryan Zimmerman, exciting. Yes, they are going to suck for quite a while, but Kasten's master plan has worked before and can again. I have no doubt that the Nats will win a WS before the O's do and within the next 10 years (frankly, as long as it's before I die, I'll take it). Furthermore, Kasten and Bowden have put this team together, not the elder Mr. Lerner. I believe the latter is taking his cues from the former two gentlemen.

Again, I am just happy to have a team and hope it will stick for a long time. It has renewed my passion for the game.

But, ultimately, you are right, no one can win this argument because "to each's own".

[TillyGalore]

More bad news for O's fans.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3281512

[EarlJam]

More bad news for O's fans.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3281512

Awesome.

If all continues to go as planned, Camden Yards will burn to the ground by May 12.

-EarlJam

[TillyGalore]

Awesome.

If all continues to go as planned, Camden Yards will burn to the ground by May 12.

-EarlJam

Plan? Do tell!!

[TheGodfather]

Awesome.

If all continues to go as planned, Camden Yards will burn to the ground by May 12.

-EarlJamMay 13th at Camden is the start of the Orioles first matchup against the BoSox. Are you that nervous? The Os crushed Boston today 12 to 2.