A word about the phrase "going beyond the pale"

[greybeard]

It was refreshing to hear Mike Gminski. He calls the game well unlike Bilas who goes beyond the pale to make sure noone thinks he may be on Duke's side. I am actually sick of the guy. I remember going to meet the team in 86 at Northgate in Durham and he was aloof to the point of nearly being rude.

I used to use it all the time. No more. Not since I learned its derivation. It seems that "the pale" is the English translation of a Ukranian or Russian term. The term referenced a line that went North/South that divided Eastern Europe, at least most of the Southern tier of it, from the Motherland, in this case, that being Russia.

Divided it from what? Not the right question. Diveded it for Whom? Jews, natch. It seems that "the pale" was a line that anyone in the World could cross from West to East, except if you were Jewish. If you were Jewish and you crossed, you died. Well, not automatically. You died if some Cossack wanted you to, which was a pretty good bet to happen.

So, I don't know about the rest of you, but "beyond the pale," in my book, is no longer acceptible useage. It trivilizes, unintentionally, one of the more dastardly realities that faced Eastern European Jews. It was actually the precursor to a Cossack led onslaught that resulted in the wholesale slaughter of more than 250,000 Jews in the Ukraine in the early 1900s, which was unfortunately just a warm up for what was to come.

"Beyond the pale" is not an apt term of description for a call in a basketball game, no matter how biased. At least in my new book. Thanks.

[Lotus000]

I used to use it all the time. No more. Not since I learned its derivation. It seems that "the pale" is the English translation of a Ukranian or Russian term. The term referenced a line that went North/South that divided Eastern Europe, at least most of the Southern tier of it, from the Motherland, in this case, that being Russia.

Divided it from what? Not the right question. Diveded it for Whom? Jews, natch. It seems that "the pale" was a line that anyone in the World could cross from West to East, except if you were Jewish. If you were Jewish and you crossed, you died. Well, not automatically. You died if some Cossack wanted you to, which was a pretty good bet to happen.

So, I don't know about the rest of you, but "beyond the pale," in my book, is no longer acceptible useage. It trivilizes, unintentionally, one of the more dastardly realities that faced Eastern European Jews. It was actually the precursor to a Cossack led onslaught that resulted in the wholesale slaughter of more than 250,000 Jews in the Ukraine in the early 1900s, which was unfortunately just a warm up for what was to come.

"Beyond the pale" is not an apt term of description for a call in a basketball game, no matter how biased. At least in my new book. Thanks.

Nope, wrong. "Pale" is a shortened form for the word "palisade." A palisade was a fence made of sharpened wooden stakes that surrounded a small town/village in early Europe to protect it from invaders. If you went outside the palisade, you were 'out of bounds,' in effect. It has zero negative connotations and certainly has nothing to do with Jews.

[billybreen]

Nope, wrong. "Pale" is a shortened form for the word "palisade." A palisade was a fence made of sharpened wooden stakes that surrounded a small town/village in early Europe to protect it from invaders. If you went outside the palisade, you were 'out of bounds,' in effect. It has zero negative connotations and certainly has nothing to do with Jews.

Seems you are mostly right (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pal2.htm), but greybeard's story is partly true. That it trivializes a pogrom seems to be a real stretch.

[Indoor66]

Seems you are mostly right (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pal2.htm), but greybeard's story is partly true. That it trivializes a pogrom seems to be a real stretch.

From Wiki:

The word pale derives ultimately from the Latin word palus, meaning stake. (Palisade is derived from the same root.) From this came the figurative meaning of "boundary", and eventually the phrase "beyond the pale". Also derived from the "boundary" concept was the idea of a pale as an area within which local laws were valid. As well as the Pale in Ireland, the term was applied to various other English colonial settlements, and the Pale of Settlement, the area in the west of Imperial Russia where Jews were permitted to reside.

[greybeard]

Nope, wrong. "Pale" is a shortened form for the word "palisade." A palisade was a fence made of sharpened wooden stakes that surrounded a small town/village in early Europe to protect it from invaders. If you went outside the palisade, you were 'out of bounds,' in effect. It has zero negative connotations and certainly has nothing to do with Jews.

Interesting then how an innocuous term was coopted to describe a line of demarcation that separated the Ukraine from Russia, beyond which Jews in the Ukraine were not permitted to go on pain of death. They stayed where they were, except for those smart enough to leave for Palistine, many on foot, beginning at the turn of the century. The slaugther of Jews, 250,000 of them en masse, followed.

The book I read this in was authored recently by a graduate of the Yale Divinity school. I have the book at home, and will see if the author provides a source for this assertion. If he doesn't, I will e-mail him and ask its basis.

The idea that the term has "zero negative connotations and certainly has nothing to do with Jews" is precisely the basis for my objection. Jews in America did not speak of such things, tried successfully to assimilate, and, except for a relative handful who demonstrated during the leadup to and running of the death camps whose protests went unheeded, remained silent while the death camps did their work.

If "beyond the pale" referenced what the author of the book I read says it did in the common parlence of the time and found its way into common useage in America (I cannot speak to its useage elsewhere) and no one knows to what it refers, I have a problem with that. I would think many other folks would as well, or at least would be interested to know of the "pale" that keep Jewish citizens locked into a pen that lead to the biggest pogrum in history, only to be eclipsed a few years later by the onset of the Holocaust.

I dare say that most all participants here are reasonably well educated.

What I read in that book, which incidently was NOT written to document the history of Jewish life in eastern Europe but that was an essential element of the author's central point of interest, was news to me.

I take it to you too, the collective you I mean. And, that would have been the reason for my post in the first place.

[greybeard]

Oh, and I do not mean to hijack this thread, well, just for a little bit, going West was not an option. See, the Jews ended up in the Ukraine, and flourishing there I might add, as a result of the inquisition in Spain and elsewhere (France would be one). The Ukraine was the most hospitable place in Europe that they could find. How did Alice used to put it, "Some castle, Ralph."

Okay, back to Bilas whom I think has spread himself too thin. He talks too often and way too much, and I just figure he stretches at times to find "interesting" things to say. Unfortunately, he ain't that smart, nobody is. He needs a hobby, and needs to leave some fish in the pond for someone else.

On the other hand, I guess in the biz, when you are hot, you gotta fish, whether you feel full or not. That's what my man T always used to say, and look what the heck he did. Here is a guy who needed valium to go up in an elevator beyond four flights, and who never stayed up past 8:30 in his life, signing on to do Monday night football. It's a real shame what some guys will do for the big bucks. Excuse me while I go to find where to sign up.

[dkbaseball]

That's what my man T always used to say, and look what the heck he did. Here is a guy who needed valium to go up in an elevator beyond four flights, and who never stayed up past 8:30 in his life, signing on to do Monday night football.

By my calculations Kornheiser would have been one year ahead of you at Ithaca College while you were at Cornell. Is that how you knew him, GB? And BTW, beyond the pale is an awfully useful expression, without an obvious substitute. If you're going to demonize it, please recommend an alternative.

[Fish80]

In common usage today, "beyond the pale" does not have any of the negative connotation that may be associated with some historical usage of the phrase. People today use it freely and certainly don't connect it with past atrocities. While others on this board feel differently, I don't have any problem with the common usage of the phrase.

[greybeard]

From Wiki:

The word pale derives ultimately from the Latin word palus, meaning stake. (Palisade is derived from the same root.) From this came the figurative meaning of "boundary", and eventually the phrase "beyond the pale". Also derived from the "boundary" concept was the idea of a pale as an area within which local laws were valid. As well as the Pale in Ireland, the term was applied to various other English colonial settlements, and the Pale of Settlement, the area in the west of Imperial Russia where Jews were permitted to reside.

Wrong as rain!!! Wiki this "'beyond the pale' Ukraine'" and you will learn something. The term "beyond the pale" describes the reality that there was this tiny little islet in Imperial Russia, actually an entirely different country known then as "the Ukraine," today as simply "Ukraine," beyond which Jews traveled at their peril, which means folk were free to er, kill them.

I was and remain exactly right about the term's derivation, which remains unknown to most everyone just as the pogrum in the Ukraine that took 250,000 lives in I believe it was a matter of months ain't taught in no history courses.

So, if one of you had taken the time to actually look into the matter, you would have found out a little something about an idiom in the American lexicon that reflects a blind spot when it comes to the history of a people and how at least some of them came to decide that it was time to return home, that is, to Palestine, where, guess what. Don't know, I'll tell you what. To avoid "trouble," the British decided to disarm everyone only thought it would be wrong to deprive Muslims of their ceremonial sworns and knives.

The Hagana was thus born, with one of their number figuring out a system of marshall arts that permitted them to not run and hide, but rather stand their ground and disarm those who came to welcome them to what was then a spot of uninhabited desert. Those young idealists refused to be butchered in the Ukraine or in Palestine, but instead set upon the work of building in the sand a city that was to become Tel Aviv.

They do not even mention any of this in American schools or textbooks, which leaves the myth that the term "beyond the pale" references images of fluff and beautific pastures.

Thomas Wolfe once said, "Only the dead know Brooklyn."

Not so with "beyond the pale," thanks in no small part to a brave few who walked beyond the limits imposed on them and quite literally did not stop until they stepped on the ground that many years later was to become a nation state.

[billybreen]

Wrong as rain!!!
...
I was and remain exactly right about the term's derivation, which remains unknown to most everyone

Wait, if no one knows about it, doesn't that mean it doesn't have this negative connotation?

[billybreen]

By my calculations Kornheiser would have been one year ahead of you at Ithaca College while you were at Cornell. Is that how you knew him, GB? And BTW, beyond the pale is an awfully useful expression, without an obvious substitute. If you're going to demonize it, please recommend an alternative.

I nominate 'beyond the beard.'

[darthur]

Wrong as rain!!!

I did, and I found the article "Pale of Settlement", which directly contradicts your claim.

"The word pale derives ultimately from the Latin word palus, meaning stake. (Palisade is derived from the same root.) From this derivation came the figurative meaning of 'boundary', and the concept of a pale as an area within which local laws were valid. The phrase "beyond the pale" derives from this meaning, referring originally to the English Pale in Ireland."

And I furthermore agree with billybreen that regardless, it is pointless to get worked up about the way in which common parlance became common parlance. It is like "history" vs "herstory" - they are just words to 99% of the population, and they only have loaded meanings today if you make them have loaded meaning.

[greybeard]

Wrong as rain!!! Wiki this "'beyond the pale' Ukraine'" and you will learn something. The term "beyond the pale" describes the reality that there was this tiny little islet in Imperial Russia, actually an entirely different country known then as "the Ukraine," today as simply "Ukraine," beyond which Jews traveled at their peril, which means folk were free to er, kill them. Of course, as I've mentioned earlier, staying had its risks too, which thankfully a group of courageous young people were able to see.

Thus, the reality is that the world history textbooks in this country were and remain devoid of any discussion of the box Jews in Europe were put in way before the world ever heard of the term the Third Reich. Ignorance of the derivation of the term "beyond the pale" is reflective of a collective silence on this subject. I learned this while reading a story about one young man among many who decided that he would not live in that box, and literally walked byond the Pale and did not stop until they reached their anchestral home. Once there, to avoid "trouble," the British decided to disarm everyone, yet somehow thought it would be wrong to deprive the Muslim population of what were denominated as their ceremonial sworns and knives.

The slaughter began anew, unless you were willing to run and hide when the onslaught came. And, the land that these newcomers occupied, it was part of no country and had no inhabitants. It was a piece of desert that the newcomers began to settle. Some decided that they would run no more; the Hagana was thus born. Many died trying to defend themselves against armed attack, those swords and knives it turned out were good for more than just ceremony. One of their number figured out a system of marshall arts that permitted these young people to hold their ground, to live rather than die, and to work on the construction of foundations to buildings that would one day become the city of Tel Aviv.

These young idealists refused to be butchered in the Ukraine or in Palestine.

Thomas Wolfe once said, "Only the dead know Brooklyn."

Not so with "beyond the pale," thanks in no small part to a brave few who refused to be limited by the bigotry that gave rise to it. That said, people obviously remain free to use the term anyway they like.

[greybeard]

Wait, if no one knows about it, doesn't that mean it doesn't have this negative connotation?

Yeap.

[greybeard]

I did, and I found the article "Pale of Settlement", which directly contradicts your claim.

"The word pale derives ultimately from the Latin word palus, meaning stake. (Palisade is derived from the same root.) From this derivation came the figurative meaning of 'boundary', and the concept of a pale as an area within which local laws were valid. The phrase "beyond the pale" derives from this meaning, referring originally to the English Pale in Ireland."

And I furthermore agree with billybreen that regardless, it is pointless to get worked up about the way in which common parlance became common parlance. It is like "history" vs "herstory" - they are just words to 99% of the population, and they only have loaded meanings today if you make them have loaded meaning.

You didn't, your search was myopic. I will not comment on your perspective.

[cato]

So, should the Irish who lived "beyond the pale" in the 1300s and 1400s have been offended for being proactively called Cossacks? Were the English colonialists referring to themselves as Jews, before there even was a Pale of Settlement in Russia?

It appears that the use of the phrase "beyond the pale (http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/beyond_the_pale/)" in English predates the creation of the Pale of Settlement in Russia.

Greybeard, I assume that you also abhor use of the term "ghetto".

[Lavabe]

Wrong as rain!!! Wiki this "'beyond the pale' Ukraine'" and you will learn something. The term "beyond the pale" describes the reality that there was this tiny little islet in Imperial Russia, actually an entirely different country known then as "the Ukraine," today as simply "Ukraine," beyond which Jews traveled at their peril, which means folk were free to er, kill them.

I was and remain exactly right about the term's derivation, which remains unknown to most everyone just as the pogrum in the Ukraine that took 250,000 lives in I believe it was a matter of months ain't taught in no history courses.

So, if one of you had taken the time to actually look into the matter, you would have found out a little something about an idiom in the American lexicon that reflects a blind spot when it comes to the history of a people and how at least some of them came to decide that it was time to return home, that is, to Palestine, where, guess what. Don't know, I'll tell you what. To avoid "trouble," the British decided to disarm everyone only thought it would be wrong to deprive Muslims of their ceremonial sworns and knives.

The Hagana was thus born, with one of their number figuring out a system of marshall arts that permitted them to not run and hide, but rather stand their ground and disarm those who came to welcome them to what was then a spot of uninhabited desert. Those young idealists refused to be butchered in the Ukraine or in Palestine, but instead set upon the work of building in the sand a city that was to become Tel Aviv.


I read this topic with interest, as both sides of my parents were from the Pale ... in Minsk (Belarus...one of the original areas demarcated as the Pale) and Vilna (Lithuania...which became part of the Pale 1 year after Ukraine). Technically, the Pale of Settlement included areas outside of Ukraine.

So I turned to Wiki, tried to use the suggested entry, and wound up getting to the Wiki entry for Pale of Settlement, in which I saw this:
"The word pale derives ultimately from the Latin word palus, meaning stake. (Palisade is derived from the same root.) From this derivation came the figurative meaning of 'boundary', and the concept of a pale as an area within which local laws were valid. The phrase "beyond the pale" derives from this meaning, referring originally to the English Pale in Ireland."

I wonder if "Paulus" is derived from the same root.;)

Cheers,
Lavabe

[darthur]

You didn't, your search was myopic.

Ha. Says the guy who quotes as his one piece of evidence an article that directly refutes his one substantive claim within the second paragraph.

[Lavabe]

Wait, if no one knows about it, doesn't that mean it doesn't have this negative connotation?

WOW... a quadruple negative!!! DANDY!!

Cheers,
Lavabe

[billybreen]

WOW... a quadruple negative!!! DANDY!!

Cheers,
Lavabe

I was trying to blind him with my rhetorical science. It's the last trick I had.

[greybeard]

I did, and I found the article "Pale of Settlement", which directly contradicts your claim.

"The word pale derives ultimately from the Latin word palus, meaning stake. (Palisade is derived from the same root.) From this derivation came the figurative meaning of 'boundary', and the concept of a pale as an area within which local laws were valid. The phrase "beyond the pale" derives from this meaning, referring originally to the English Pale in Ireland."

And I furthermore agree with billybreen that regardless, it is pointless to get worked up about the way in which common parlance became common parlance. It is like "history" vs "herstory" - they are just words to 99% of the population, and they only have loaded meanings today if you make them have loaded meaning.

Hmm, I wonder if the Redmen would agree with that. Or, for that matter, the Blackmen. What about the Irishmen, or does that depend on whether they are Catholic or Protestant.

I am not an advocate against using the term "beyond the pale." I could care less. I do think that it would be useful if people in this country and elsewhere, in particular in Europe which in case you also don't read the newspapers, is rife with antisemitism and violence against Jews yet again, have an accurate understanding of the history from which that term derives. There is a little trouble spot in the world known as the Middle East, you know.

A common refrain from certain quarters is that, well, if Germany slaughtered all those Jews (like maybe the idea that they did was, pardon me, beyond the pale somehow), why didn't they build Israel in Germany. Some people give plausibility to such a claim.

I do not mean to convert this into some sort of debate about the modern dilema that is the Middle East.

My intent was and remains to bring to light a recent discovery I made, which was that the world, the Western one I'm talking about now, had and has such blinders on about an important story that played out in eastern europe, and about the role that story played in the migration of a people to Palestine where they were met with supervised violence, still flies completely under the radar, even while the Middle East threatens ever more to explode. That, it seems to me, can not be good.

Now, at least, when you guys and I use the term "beyond the pale," we will be aware from whence it came. The rest of the folks will just have to blunder along, unless and until the descendents of those young Ukrainians are pushed too far, in which case it ain't gonna be pretty for anyone.

Then, Thomas Wolfe's words might well be applicable, should it never come to pass.

[darthur]

Hmm, I wonder if the Redmen would agree with that. Or, for that matter, the Blackmen. What about the Irishmen, or does that depend on whether they are Catholic or Protestant.

Huh? Are you suggesting the term "Irish" is somehow offensive? I really have no idea what you're going after here. Anyway, I think you're missing the point. If a lot of people are offended by a word, of course you should not use it - otherwise you'll offend them. If almost nobody is offended, and nobody intends to offend with it, what's the point of telling people they *should* be offended? Seems to me that's what you are doing with "beyond the pale".


I am not an advocate against using the term "beyond the pale." ... I do not mean to convert this into some sort of debate about the modern dilema that is the Middle East.

If you say so...


My intent was and remains to bring to light a recent discovery I made, which was that the world, the Western one I'm talking about now, had and has such blinders on about an important story that played out in eastern europe, and about the role that story played in the migration of a people to Palestine where they were met with supervised violence, still flies completely under the radar, even while the Middle East threatens ever more to explode. That, it seems to me, can not be good.

Surely more focus on the Middle East would be a good thing in American education. But I'd say it is *Muslim* history that is the most conspicuous in its absence in our classrooms.


Now, at least, when you guys and I use the term "beyond the pale," we will be aware from whence it came.

You keep saying that, and Wikipedia keeps saying you're wrong...

[Cavlaw]

Cut him some slack. This is the same guy who takes umbrage at anyone referencing his previously chosen handle as offensive to the new age teacher he borrowed it from, ignoring the far older (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudra) source of the name...

[greybeard]

darthur: on google, type in the term "beyond the pale," quotes included. Now, do not hit the search button. Then type in Ukraine after an appropriate hit of the space bar.

Then hit the search button. The second site referenced will be to Wiki, and will tell you much of what you need to know.

The first site also seems to contain pertinent information. What seemed at a glance to be missing from the first sight, which put the number of Jews killed in pogrums at 100,000 was any mention of the pogrum that occurred in Ukraine, which was NOT in Russia, but rather OUTSIDE. The huge pogrum in the Ukraine occurred before World War I; in it, 250,000 Jews were slaughtered. A town was renamed in Ukraine for the Cossak leader who was responsible for it. In that town, there is a mass grave of 300 Jewish children who what's his name ordered taken from a school and shot. There is another mass grave of 650 adults nearby.

HIstorians play these funny tricks. They look for information on Russia, thinking that many places in eastern europe were part of Russia because they had been conquered by her. They were not. Thus, the numbers reported on reputable sites of Jews killed are wrong. There apparently were 100,000 Jews killed in pogrums in Russia, there were lots and lots of them, in and around the turn of the 20th century. That number pales in comparison to those Jews who obeyed and stayed within the pale.

Some left, they did not run away, and went to Palestine, where they renounced the passivity that Europe forced upon Jewish people, and settled in Palestine. Many more made their way to America. Those that did, many anyway, helped others from their schtettles to follow and get a footing in America. In the main, they did not tell the stories of the horrors left behind, that preceeded, and then the big one that came on the heals of, their own migrations. They wanted the centuries of pogrums that began in the 1400s in Spain and followed them to the Ukraine to remain behind. And, then the sumami hit.

As some might have seen on TV, some Jews took to the streets to bring attention to the camps and to get Roosvelt to do something about them. They reached out to Henry Morganthau, who eventually came around to at least advocate a bit for the cause with his buddy Franklin, to no avail. Franklin, under pressure from the State Department, refused even to bomb the tracks to stop the trains from reaching the death camps.

The nazi era stuff was known to me ever since Arthur Goldberg, then a former Supreme Court justist, issued an investigative report on the government's non efforts to stop the organized slaughter. I thought Goldberg's report revealed actions that were "beyond the pale." Now, a 61 year old man, I learn that I did not fully appreciate the half of it.

[darthur]

The second site referenced will be to Wiki, and will tell you much of what you need to know.

Indeed - that's the site that directly contradicts your claim in the second paragraph.


Cut him some slack.

Ok, good plan.

[Lavabe]

I was trying to blind him with my rhetorical science. It's the last trick I had.

You failed me in biology!

Why don't you try Bugs Bunny's suggestion:
"I think I'll perplex him with my slow ball."

Cheers,
Lavabe

[greybeard]

darthur: Your concern that the Muslim "side" of the story is not being told is dated and completely out of step with the reality on the ground.

Oil money has funded "mid eastern studies" departments at virtually every major university in America. You will find those departments devoid of academic standards, and devoid of any counterveiling input. He who has the gold makes the rules, and the rules are that what passes for "middle east" studies is a slanted and one-sided presentation of an anti Israel agenda.

Calling the perspective a "Muslim" one enshrouds with the clock of legitimacy what I understand to be anything but.

Some might be skeptical and say that Jewish Americans are not without resources and can establish endowed chairs and provide a counterbalance. Not so fast. The reality is that such "chairs" fall under the jurisdiction of the "middle east studies" departments and get filled by department chairmen to maintain hegemity. The reality is that efforts to actually get other voices on the faculty of major universities has required very, very, very careful planning, and, as of now, represent a drop in the proverbial bucket. The influence of oil money on most modern American institutions, including universities, continues to grow. I am sure that that money will speak forcefully to the concern that you have expressed. We are on the same page about that, at least, right?

[cato]

darthur: Your concern that the Muslim "side" of the story is not being told is dated and completely out of step with the reality on the ground.

Oil money has funded "mid eastern studies" departments at virtually every major university in America. You will find those departments devoid of academic standards, and devoid of any counterveiling input. He who has the gold makes the rules, and the rules are that what passes for "middle east" studies is a slanted and one-sided presentation of an anti Israel agenda.

Calling the perspective a "Muslim" one enshrouds with the clock of legitimacy what I understand to be anything but.

Some might be skeptical and say that Jewish Americans are not without resources and can establish endowed chairs and provide a counterbalance. Not so fast. The reality is that such "chairs" fall under the jurisdiction of the "middle east studies" departments and get filled by department chairmen to maintain hegemity. The reality is that efforts to actually get other voices on the faculty of major universities has required very, very, very careful planning, and, as of now, represent a drop in the proverbial bucket. The influence of oil money on most modern American institutions, including universities, continues to grow. I am sure that that money will speak forcefully to the concern that you have expressed. We are on the same page about that, at least, right?

How much of that can you back up?

[greybeard]

Wow, Darthur and Cavlaw, it's one thing to have tunnel vision, but come into the light sometime, it'll do you both some good. Myopic reading can not justify your efforts to obscure the facts presented in that section of Wiki.

Let's try a little hypothetical, kay, Cavlaw, you went to law school. We all know what apartheid means in modern parlence. Now, suppose (this is the hypothetical part boyz) that that term originated back in merry old England when sheperds used to separate black sheep from white, solely for breeding purposes, so folks who wanted black wool and not white could get it. I'm playing make believe here, but it seems I'm in good company with you and Cavlaw, so what the hey. At any rate, I'd say you get the point, but both of you are giving me pause.

The two of you excerpt two sentences out of a piece that contains dozens and describes 100 year history of appartheid and worse and make believe that the other sentences don't exist. My point exactly, boys, my point exactly.

[Cavlaw]

Wow, Darthur and Cavlaw, it's one thing to have tunnel vision, but come into the light sometime, it'll do you both some good. Myopic reading can not justify your efforts to obscure the facts presented in that section of Wiki.

Let's try a little hypothetical, kay, Cavlaw, you went to law school. We all know what apartheid means in modern parlence. Now, suppose (this is the hypothetical part boyz) that that term originated back in merry old England when sheperds used to separate black sheep from white, solely for breeding purposes, so folks who wanted black wool and not white could get it. I'm playing make believe here, but it seems I'm in good company with you and Cavlaw, so what the hey. At any rate, I'd say you get the point, but both of you are giving me pause.

The two of you excerpt two sentences out of a piece that contains dozens and describes 100 year history of appartheid and worse and make believe that the other sentences don't exist. My point exactly, boys, my point exactly.
Wha? I know ya like to wrassle with me, but I've not excerpted anything nor participated in the debate about the origins of the phrase 'beyond the pale'. Where exactly do I fit into your rant?

Also, your post makes no sense.

[greybeard]

I was trying to blind him with my rhetorical science. It's the last trick I had.

The reality is that there was an area in Eastern Europe where Jews from Western Europe went even though they had lived in the western most part of Western Europe in complete harmony with Muslims and had created one of the brightest periods of enlighenment the Continent has ever known. Now the reason that they left Spain was that they were getting killed in droves and in particularly painful ways and the "safest" haven for them was eastern europe, where they settled and florished even though they were not allowed to own land or nothing. The czarina of Russia in the mid 1700s created a "pale" within which Jews had to live, so says Wiki. Wiki leaves out the part about what happens when we, my boyz, traveled "beyond the pale," but from everything I've read, it was pretty much along the lines of what Queen Isabella had cooked up for their ancestors several centuries earlier.

So, "going beyond the pale," which ended up leading to the easy slaughter of 250,000 people because they were afraid to do that, it seems to me took on a whole new meaning from when the term was invented back in merry old England. Only nobody knows any of this because guys like youz insist on reading two freakin sentences and nothing else.

I wouldn't mind that, because after all I chose to go to a real college and you guys didn't, but I worry about the kids. Me and my boy Bud, and those congressman on the hill who are looking for the second time into steroid use in baseball, are worried about the kids.

And, with that worry in mind, I am reminded of the bubbaminzer about the young guy and his wife who move from Minsk to NY, he gets a job, and they want to move into their own apartment, but everytime Mo knocks on the door, and says, "I vant to rent an apartment," the answer is, "We don't rent apartments to Jews" and the door slams in his face.

He comes home and whines to his wife Sara, and, the warrier she is, she directs Mo to go out again, and, just when they are about to slam the door, stick his foot in it and pronounce, "but I'm not a Jew."

Now, Mo, he is afraid of what the goyem might do to him, but not nearly as much as what he knows Sara will do to him, so he does as he is told.

The door slammer replies that he don't believe Mo (I'm not sure if it's the black hat, the side burns, or the accent), and that Mo has to answer some questions. They begin, who is the son of tha almighty, who was his mother, and then where was he born. The last answer was "a barn."

See, some things it pays to remember. Where the term "the pale" or "beyond the pale" was used for the very first time, by me, ain't one of them. By you, so is my little story. Interesting.

[Cavlaw]

The reality is that there was an area in Eastern Europe where Jews from Western Europe went even though they had lived in the western most part of Western Europe in complete harmony with Muslims and had created one of the brightest periods of enlighenment the Continent has ever known. Now the reason that they left Spain was that they were getting killed in droves and in particularly painful ways and the "safest" haven for them was eastern europe, where they settled and florished even though they were not allowed to own land or nothing. The czarina of Russia in the mid 1700s created a "pale" within which Jews had to live, so says Wiki. Wiki leaves out the part about what happens when we, my boyz, traveled "beyond the pale," but from everything I've read, it was pretty much along the lines of what Queen Isabella had cooked up for their ancestors several centuries earlier.

So, "going beyond the pale," which ended up leading to the easy slaughter of 250,000 people because they were afraid to do that, it seems to me took on a whole new meaning from when the term was invented back in merry old England. Only nobody knows any of this because guys like youz insist on reading two freakin sentences and nothing else.

I wouldn't mind that, because after all I chose to go to a real college and you guys didn't, but I worry about the kids. Me and my boy Bud, and those congressman on the hill who are looking for the second time into steroid use in baseball, are worried about the kids.

And, with that worry in mind, I am reminded of the bubbaminzer about the young guy and his wife who move from Minsk to NY, he gets a job, and they want to move into their own apartment, but everytime Mo knocks on the door, and says, "I vant to rent an apartment," the answer is, "We don't rent apartments to Jews" and the door slams in his face.

He comes home and whines to his wife Sara, and, the warrier she is, she directs Mo to go out again, and, just when they are about to slam the door, stick his foot in it and pronounce, "but I'm not a Jew."

Now, Mo, he is afraid of what the goyem might do to him, but not nearly as much as what he knows Sara will do to him, so he does as he is told.

The door slammer replies that he don't believe Mo (I'm not sure if it's the black hat, the side burns, or the accent), and that Mo has to answer some questions. They begin, who is the son of tha almighty, who was his mother, and then where was he born. The last answer was "a barn."

See, some things it pays to remember. Where the term "the pale" or "beyond the pale" was used for the very first time, by me, ain't one of them. By you, so is my little story. Interesting.
To borrow from Billy Madison:

Mr. Greybeard, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[greybeard]

To borrow from Billy Madison:

Mr. Greybeard, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

You understand me quite well, and I you. The rationale thought is that, had you been there, from what you have said, I fear that you would not have rented either of them an apartment. ;)

[Cavlaw]

You understand me quite well, and I you. The rationale thought is that, had you been there, from what you have said, I fear that you would not have rented either of them an apartment. ;)
I actually have no idea what your ramblings have to with the rest of this thread. The "winkie" notwithstanding, the only thing I get out of your most recent post is that you fear I'm antisemitic in some fashion, to which I can only respond that my wife is Jewish, you great blubbering horse's behind.

I'll take my infraction points on this one.

[greybeard]

I actually have no idea what your ramblings have to with the rest of this thread. The "winkie" notwithstanding, the only thing I get out of your most recent post is that you fear I'm antisemitic in some fashion, to which I can only respond that my wife is Jewish, you great blubbering horse's behind.

I'll take my infraction points on this one.

I don't fear anything about you Cavlaw. I will not, however, be cowed by your insults.

I don't think that you are an antisemite, just an insensative lout at times, and this has been one of them. I speak to an interest of importance to me, it has to do with things Jewish, and you and your boyz do what? Behave like what? Some of your best friends, wow! No kidding.

[Cavlaw]

I don't fear anything about you Cavlaw. I will not, however, be cowed by your insults.

I don't think that you are an antisemite, just an insensative lout at times, and this has been one of them. I speak to an interest of importance to me, it has to do with things Jewish, and you and your boyz do what? Behave like what? Some of your best friends, wow! No kidding.
I'm sorry that your arguments are confusing and that your position is not correct. I'm not certain how this somehow makes me insensitive to "things Jewish" in your eyes.

Perhaps if you suggested that the Jewish holy land was in Indonesia, and then supported it with a parable about the commisioner of the NFL and a Jewish couple vacationing in Java, it would make me insensitive to "things Jewish" if I disagreed?

And not some of my best friends. My wife.

[greybeard]

I'm sorry that your arguments are confusing and that your position is not correct. I'm not certain how this somehow makes me insensitive to "things Jewish" in your eyes.

Perhaps if you suggested that the Jewish holy land was in Indonesia, and then supported it with a parable about the commisioner of the NFL and a Jewish couple vacationing in Java, it would make me insensitive to "things Jewish" if I disagreed?

And not some of my best friends. My wife.

It's what people often say when they met a Jew. "My roommate freshman year was Jewish" or some such. Just teasing you about your shallow read of my post as insinuating that you and other posters here are antisemetic. I don't believe that, and find your suggestion not merely shallow, but insulting. I'll hold my breath for an apology.

What you remain insensative about is the point I was making about the connection between the term "beyond the pale" and what, unbeknownst to me, was the corraling of hundreds of thousands of Jews in a small territory in eastern europe only to have them slaughtered before the "final solution" was even a glimmer in Hitler's eye.

I thought that discussing that aspect of the history of that term might prove worthwhile, illuminating.

You responded like a lout, and pretend that it was innocent quibbling about two sentences in a freakin on-line encylopedia. Then you pretend that you don't know what I'm talking about?

Please Cavlaw, you really needed to do all this? Your wife know about it?