To all the football fans...

[Bluedawg]

Sorry, but Wally Wade just isn't that historic...


I guess hosting a Rose Bowl game and being the only stadium outside the Rose Bowl to do that doesn't count?

[YmoBeThere]

I guess hosting a Rose Bowl game and being the only stadium outside the Rose Bowl to do that doesn't count?

I guess maybe too long ago to be historic? :D

[jlear]

May I suggest that the sample size is not appropriate? You can't look at a single year's attendance and results and draw a good conclusion. A lot more work to go back and look at records and attendance figures for a 4-5 year period(and much longer would be better) but anything less leads to weak conclusions, IMHO.

Overall on the fan support/winning issue, we have potentially revealed a chicken or the egg situation. So, either we start showing up for games(I am good for one a season, sorry I live too far away) or they need to have some W's on the field...to break this impasse.

The sample size is too small for sure. I just found the correlation comment to be outrageous.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Originally Posted by Bluedawg View Post
I guess hosting a Rose Bowl game and being the only stadium outside the Rose Bowl to do that doesn't count?


I guess maybe too long ago to be historic? :D

Too long ago? I'm sure you said that tongue in cheek; at least I hope you did. That's why they call it history!

Yes, Bluedawg, it counts.

[RPS]

I think there is a correlation between winning and fan support: the more you win the more fan support you will have.

You're of course correct, but the reverse is also true, if not quite so directly.

Our family has spent the past six months actively deciding where our youngest is going to play college football. Fan, student and faculty support are all huge factors in his decision. Recruits talk about it all the time (and they do talk with each other). Simply put, every kid wants to play in front of big and supportive crowds and nobody wants to play in a stadium that's either empty or filled with the opponent's fans. He wants his peers to be supportive and he doesn't want his athletic status to be a problem in the classroom. There are of course other factors, and a charismatic coach with a vision may entice some great kids to come in and start something. But in general, fan support is exceedingly important. You undervalue it a lot.

[Duvall]

Put track and field in a new facility. This school has more money than God.

I thought the athletic department basically broke even most years - is there enough money in athletic funds to build a separate track facility in addition to renovating Wade?

[Lavabe]

Too long ago? I'm sure you said that tongue in cheek; at least I hope you did. That's why they call it history!

Yes, Bluedawg, it counts.

Fair enough Bluedawg! You got me.

When Wally Wade achieves something remotely similar to a Sanford Stadium Blackout, I'll change my opinion.

STILL waiting.:mad:

The location of one Rose Bowl in the pantheon of college football history?

Umm... I'm more bothered by my recent visit to St. Louis, seeing the condos that now stand where the Checkerdome used to stand. I'm also more bothered by the tearing away of the history of the LA Coliseum track. And sue me, but I'm also bothered by Madison Square Garden. Sorry, I appreciate its history, but I will never attend another event in that venue.

Perhaps my negativity about Wally Wade Stadium is that it just doesn't have the zing of places like the Big House, the Horseshoe, the Coliseum, Notre Dame (& Touchdown Jesus), the Hedges, the Swamp...

THAT'S IT!! Wally Wade needs a good nickname! :D

Cheers,
Lavabe

[OZZIE4DUKE]

You're of course correct, but the reverse is also true, if not quite so directly.

Our family has spent the past six months actively deciding where our youngest is going to play college football.

Are you the dad of the linebacker from Tennessee who sat behind me at the game a couple of weeks ago during the first half of the game?

[throatybeard]

When Wally Wade achieves something remotely similar to a Sanford Stadium Blackout, I'll change my opinion.


I have it on pretty good authority that Duke fans think wearing our school colors is lame. We're too cool for school... colors.

w/r/t the Rose Bowl, folks, it's nice, but we can't possibly expect a kid born in 1990 to care one bit that some guys his dead great grandfather's age played a Rose Bowl at Duke, because we were scared about military attack from an island nation that's been an ally since his grandfather was in grade school.

[jimsumner]

"Sorry, but Wally Wade just isn't that historic..."

In addition to the '42 Rose Bowl and numerous great football teams under Wade and Murray, WW also hosted numerous major track and field meets, especially international meets in the 1970s when Al Buehler and LeRoy Walker made Durham one of the most important t&f sites around. Several NCAA championships in recent years.

My understanding is that Duke is out of the big time track and field business for the foreseable future and I do think moving the track has to be part of the discussion. But do so with the understanding that Duke has taken advantage of having a world-class track with seating for 35K on several occasions and this track has its own historical significance.

[Johnboy]

"Sorry, but Wally Wade just isn't that historic..."

In addition to the '42 Rose Bowl and numerous great football teams under Wade and Murray, WW also hosted numerous major track and field meets, especially international meets in the 1970s when Al Buehler and LeRoy Walker made Durham one of the most important t&f sites around. Several NCAA championships in recent years.

My understanding is that Duke is out of the big time track and field business for the foreseable future and I do think moving the track has to be part of the discussion. But do so with the understanding that Duke has taken advantage of having a world-class track with seating for 35K on several occasions and this track has its own historical significance.

I have been waiting for that comment. Wally Wade is (was?) a great track venue. I know football rules the roost, but it seems a shame to me that we are wanting to tear up the track to add seats when we don't fill the seats we have.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

w/r/t the Rose Bowl, folks, it's nice, but we can't possibly expect a kid born in 1990 to care one bit that some guys his dead great grandfather's age played a Rose Bowl at Duke, because we were scared about military attack from an island nation that's been an ally since his grandfather was in grade school.

Throaty, I respectfully disagree with this statement. I was born in 1954, didn't care a hoot about Duke until 1971, but I am tremendously proud that Duke hosted and played in this game in 1942. Over the years I have brought it up in conversation when appropriate, probably half a dozen times. The usual reaction from people is "Really? I didn't know that!"

When looked at from a distance, I think Wallace Wade Stadium is a beautiful venue for football and hope we stay in it for decades to come. I think my favorite view is behind the back wall in the closed end zone, looking towards the scoreboard. When I look at it up close, I want all the renovations that have been discussed and hopefully are now, or will be, planned.

[RPS]

Are you the dad of the linebacker from Tennessee who sat behind me at the game a couple of weeks ago during the first half of the game?Nope. We're Left Coasters....

[formerdukeathlete]

Throaty, I respectfully disagree with this statement. I was born in 1954, didn't care a hoot about Duke until 1971, but I am tremendously proud that Duke hosted and played in this game in 1942. Over the years I have brought it up in conversation when appropriate, probably half a dozen times. The usual reaction from people is "Really? I didn't know that!"

When looked at from a distance, I think Wallace Wade Stadium is a beautiful venue for football and hope we stay in it for decades to come. I think my favorite view is behind the back wall in the closed end zone, looking towards the scoreboard. When I look at it up close, I want all the renovations that have been discussed and hopefully are now, or will be, planned.

Ozzie, what you describe would argue for keeping the open end of the stadium open. One idea would be to lower the field about 12 feet, bring seats to the field and then add endzone seats on the open end of the stadium just as the grade is lowered.

http://football.ballparks.com/NCAA/Big10/Wisconsin/index.htm

This is how they did it at Wisconsin. Notice from the photo that the new seats added on the way down match exactly the slope of the stadium. This could be done at Wade, where we would form up concrete matching existing in grade and effect.

Wisconsin's horseshoe was renovated in this fashion in the 1950s. It is on some historic landmarks. lowering the field and bringing additional seating to the field apparently did not affect its status as such.

Right now with a 34k capacity Wade is not filled. However, if (as we are) we are planning to be successful, a 45k stadium works and can be filled in this day and age. A coach worth his salt would plan on doing this. It is large enough to pass the smell test for a top division program. And, Wade can be beautiful (as well as sufficiently more impressive) if renovated in a similar fashion as Wisconsin.

[Lavabe]

I have been waiting for that comment. Wally Wade is (was?) a great track venue. I know football rules the roost, but it seems a shame to me that we are wanting to tear up the track to add seats when we don't fill the seats we have.

I appreciate Jim's comment, as well as yours Johnboy, but I just sense (looking at Stanford) that the development of a separate, but higher quality track stadium would do more justice to the legacy of Buehler and Walker than would letting it linger in its current venue. I remember attending one of the WWade track meets in the early 80's; it was really nice, but I can't say that it's as nice as a number of the more modern, smaller, more intimate venues.

ASSUMING, of course, that there's money, land, and will for it.

Jim: Did you earlier comment about the Orange Bowl's last game this season? Seems like a lot of historic venues have changed lately.
Cheers,
Lavabe

[Lavabe]

I have it on pretty good authority that Duke fans think wearing our school colors is lame. We're too cool for school... colors.

But can Duke students dance to Soulja Boy?;)

Fire up the war paint Throaty ... it's basketball season!:D

Cheers,
Lavabe

[ugadevil]

But can Duke students dance to Soulja Boy?;)


Or can Duke students dance to Soulja Boy while dressed in seersucker and ties, with their dates in cocktail dresses, while mixing bourbon with their coke from the concession stand? That's all you need.;)

[throatybeard]

Or can Duke students dance to Soulja Boy while dressed in seersucker and ties, with their dates in cocktail dresses, while mixing bourbon with their coke from the concession stand? That's all you need.;)

What is it Cowherd says about the smell of Oxford? "Barbecue, bourbon, and Chanel No. 5."

If persistent alumni complaints about our current Ugrads are accurate, Soulja Boy may be a little sophisticated for their feet.

[crimsonandblue]

Faurot Field is just plain bizarre now... take out the track, but don't put stands in. The separate track is supposedly pretty nice.

I guess the source of my bewilderment was that the Kansas track is truly historic, and I couldn't imagine them moving it. Sort of like Hayward Field in Oregon. Originally set up for football, Oregon wound up opening another stadium for football, leaving Hayward for track. Kicking track off Hayward would have created a tremendous stink.

Sorry, but Wally Wade just isn't that historic...

I guess a great model would be the Stanford situation. They created a nice track stadium, and renovated the existing football stadium. I wonder how that flew past the trustees, admin, and faculty.

I love the UDub stadium. It's as close to putting in a moat as you'll find! All it needs is a few gators!! ;)

Cheers,
Lavabe


I won't pretend to have read this whole thing, but Lavabe echoes a lot of the discussions Kansas fans have had regarding removal of the track, issues with how Mizzou handled Faurot (well, we're maybe a bit biased on that front, since we think the place should be razed regardless), and issues of fan interest, additional seating, "historic" track and venue, and costs.

I'd be shocked if Duke wasn't looking closely at what Kansas has done, has failed to do, and is doing. Currently, we're sinking $40 Million into a new football only office, locker room, weight and training room, film study, facility right next to Memorial Stadium (our horseshoe football stadium with surrounding track). We've basically committed to our stadium for the next fifty years by doing this. We also are converting surrounding land to two new practice fields.

Kansas people basically demanded that the new facility not block the view of "the Hill," which rises up from the open end of the horseshoe, so we've got multiple levels of the new facility below ground to make sure the sightlines are maintained. All of that just goes to show that schools are concerned with traditions, views, etc.

Kansas does have an historic track program and has hosted world class track events for years, including the Kansas Relays, where we've recently paid a bundle to bring in guys like Maurice Greene to try and keep track alive and interest up. That said, there are still monthly or even weekly discussions on Kansas message boards about removing the track to try and get fans closer to the action. The general proposal is to take out the track, dig down and lower the field ten feet or so, and add seven or so rows of seats and then "square off" the bowl, bringing the endzone seats perpendicular to the sideline seating. It's not really intended to increase seating capacity so much as bring the fans closer to the action and give the team a real home field advantage.

But Memorial, like WW, has other more pressing issues, like making the upper level concourse something nicer than a Stuckeys restroom that hasn't been cleaned since 1983. They did the lower councourse several years ago and did a good job. The facade could also use some work.

That said, I love games in Memorial. The intimacy isn't there because of the track, but the setting looking up the Hill, with campus in the background, is fantastic. I will never advocate changing the location. And I'd rather they improve the amenities before they do anything to the track (which is a big ticket item, versus something like $10 million to update the upper concourse). Right now, we've got interest enough to fill every seat (capacity is a little over 50,000), but our seating capacity is fine.

Looking forward to seeing WW in 2009 when Kansas comes to town.

[Bluedawg]

I appreciate Jim's comment, as well as yours Johnboy, but I just sense (looking at Stanford) that the development of a separate, but higher quality track stadium would do more justice to the legacy of Buehler and Walker than would letting it linger in its current venue. I remember attending one of the WWade track meets in the early 80's; it was really nice, but I can't say that it's as nice as a number of the more modern, smaller, more intimate venues.

ASSUMING, of course, that there's money, land, and will for it.

And then there was Dave Sime


Track and field events in the stadium have brought thrills and international renown to the university as well. In 1956, Dave Sime, perhaps the most electrifying of Duke athletes, was billed as the "World's Fastest Human." As a sophomore, Sime, an unheralded baseball player, burst on the track scene setting world records in a winter indoor meet in Washington, D. C. When he appeared outdoors at Duke in the spring, large crowds were not disappointed. In a single meet Sime set the world record in the 220 low hurdles, tied the world record in the 220 yard dash, and missed the world record in the 100 yard dash by just 1/10 of a second. Continuing to compete while in medical school, Sime went on to hold seven world records and earn Olympic medals despite injury and a rigorous academic schedule.

Wallace Wade Stadium (http://library.duke.edu/uarchives/history/histnotes/wade_stadium.html)

[-jk]

Or can Duke students dance to Soulja Boy while dressed in seersucker and ties, with their dates in cocktail dresses, while mixing bourbon with their coke from the concession stand? That's all you need.;)

Coke? In Bourbon? Sacrilege.

Ice. Perhaps sugar water and a sprig of mint, even.

Not Coke.

Now if you're drinking a Tennessee Whiskey (i.e., Jack Daniel's), you can mix it with pretty much anything. Though they think it seems to go best in BBQ sauce. That's a different thread, though.

-jk

[Devilsfan]

is totally apathetic when it comes to football. That's why this thread has nearly 300 posts. Tired of gridion futility? Maybe.
P.S. Mint Julips are awful!

[CameronBlue]

<no message>

[OZZIE4DUKE]

is totally apathetic when it comes to football. That's why this thread has nearly 300 posts. Tired of gridion futility? Maybe.
P.S. Mint Julips are awful!

And that's exactly what I emailed to Caulton Tudor yesterday in response to his article.

I agree with you on Mint Julips, too!

[throatybeard]

Drink mojitos. Problem solved.

[Lavabe]

And then there was Dave Sime

Good one.

Crimsonandblue: I was thinking more of Jim Ryun ... at least in relation to the Kansas track. Ryun's effect on the sport was tremendous. Thanks very much for your perspective. I grew up in Jersey at the time when Marty Liquori was moving up in the rankings, so the Kansas, Penn, and Drake relays were very important.

I think what we have, overall, is a tremendously anxious time in the history of athletics. It's still popular in Europe, but I wonder about its future fan base in the U.S. Can it sustain itself here with large stadia, as it had in the past?

At first, I was terribly sentimental about the WallyWade track discussion. I now find myself reassessing the desire to stick with the old vs. the tremendous benefits of improving the situation for the student athletes. In a case like Kansas, I'd lean towards preserving the history of the track. There is just SO much history with that venue in relation to that sport. In the best of all possible worlds, I'd love to see Kansas take the Oregon approach... assuming the money and land are there.

In Duke's case, I lean towards improving the situation for both the football and track athletes. Perhaps after all, I find myself siding with fda...

EGADS!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

He converted me! ;)

Cheers,
Lavabe

[jimsumner]

Clearly, Duke has a hard-core of knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and frustrated football fans. Anybody who's still on board by this point is pretty hard-core. Folks like Larry Osborne who keep coming year after agonizing year deserve kudos. And sympathy.

But from a media perspective, Caulton has a point. The state's largest newspaper, located barely more than a two-hour drive from Durham, doesn't even bother to staff games at Duke. And we're only talking 5-7 Saturdays per year. Attendance figures are minuscule and Duke is on TV only because they have to be.

This begs a whole series of chicken-and-egg-questions about the relationship between winning football teams and fan support. But the demographic reality is that Duke isn't going to fill Wade with 1-10 teams. Those of you who remember the Spurrier years and the first Goldsmith season know that the peripheral fans will show up for winning teams.

[hughgs]

But from a media perspective, Caulton has a point. The state's largest newspaper, located barely more than a two-hour drive from Durham, doesn't even bother to staff games at Duke. And we're only talking 5-7 Saturdays per year. Attendance figures are minuscule and Duke is on TV only because they have to be.

I have found that Duke coverage, in general, in that paper is lacking, so I don't think it's just football that they're ignoring.

[dukie8]

Clearly, Duke has a hard-core of knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and frustrated football fans. Anybody who's still on board by this point is pretty hard-core. Folks like Larry Osborne who keep coming year after agonizing year deserve kudos. And sympathy.

But from a media perspective, Caulton has a point. The state's largest newspaper, located barely more than a two-hour drive from Durham, doesn't even bother to staff games at Duke. And we're only talking 5-7 Saturdays per year. Attendance figures are minuscule and Duke is on TV only because they have to be.

This begs a whole series of chicken-and-egg-questions about the relationship between winning football teams and fan support. But the demographic reality is that Duke isn't going to fill Wade with 1-10 teams. Those of you who remember the Spurrier years and the first Goldsmith season know that the peripheral fans will show up for winning teams.

ding. ding. we have a winner. put a good product out on the field (ie, a team that wins) and people will show up -- and contrary to what so many people on here believe, it doesn't work the opposite way. the hot dog/bathroom/parking blather that continually gets batted around on here just distracts from the real issues causing duke to be not so good at football.

[dukie8]

Good one.

Crimsonandblue: I was thinking more of Jim Ryun ... at least in relation to the Kansas track. Ryun's effect on the sport was tremendous. Thanks very much for your perspective. I grew up in Jersey at the time when Marty Liquori was moving up in the rankings, so the Kansas, Penn, and Drake relays were very important.

I think what we have, overall, is a tremendously anxious time in the history of athletics. It's still popular in Europe, but I wonder about its future fan base in the U.S. Can it sustain itself here with large stadia, as it had in the past?

At first, I was terribly sentimental about the WallyWade track discussion. I now find myself reassessing the desire to stick with the old vs. the tremendous benefits of improving the situation for the student athletes. In a case like Kansas, I'd lean towards preserving the history of the track. There is just SO much history with that venue in relation to that sport. In the best of all possible worlds, I'd love to see Kansas take the Oregon approach... assuming the money and land are there.

In Duke's case, I lean towards improving the situation for both the football and track athletes. Perhaps after all, I find myself siding with fda...

EGADS!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

He converted me! ;)

Cheers,
Lavabe

duke's track is a world class track and has had some very big meets over the years. from goduke.com:


An excellent training and competition facility, the track itself is an eight-lane, Olympic-size 400-meter oval with a Mondo Super-X Double Density surface. Enclosed on three sides, Wallace Wade Stadium provides seating for 33,941 fans and can host all the field events inside its confines, a pleasant rarity in the 21st century.

The facility's excellent reputation as a fast track can be backed by the impressive list of stadium records and the big meets and big crowds it has often attracted. NCAA Championships, Olympic Festivals and International dual meets are regular features at Duke, and the 1994 Pan Africa-USA International Track meet made another assault on the record books.

Every April, the Duke Invitational is host to more than 2,000 athletes from around the nation in a top-flight collegiate competition. In addition, Duke hosted the 2000 NCAA Outdoor Track and Field Championships and drew a four-day crowd of more than 35,000. In 1996, Duke hosted the Olympic Gold Rush Meet and drew 29,000 fans in one evening.

http://www.nmnathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=218284

the track meet in 2000 drew more people than probably 1/3 of the football games in a typical fall campaign!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Clearly, Duke has a hard-core of knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and frustrated football fans. Anybody who's still on board by this point is pretty hard-core. Folks like Larry Osborne who keep coming year after agonizing year deserve kudos. And sympathy.



Thanks, Jim! I have said for years that going to the football games is my penance for having basketball tickets. But I do love going. I just want us to win.

[jimsumner]

Actually, I do think that rest rooms, concessions, and parking matter. There's a difference between a program that's struggling but trying to get better and a program that's struggling and doesn't seem to much care. Lousy customer service reinforces the perception that Duke doesn't care about football or its fans. By doesn't care, I don't mean the players or the coaches, I mean the administration, the board of trustees, the president.

Even if the die-hards have grown used to this, don't we want to present our best face to visiting teams and fans, media, and yes, recruits and their families? Duke claims to be a world-class university. I think we'd settle for something well under world-class restrooms but something that reflects better on the university and program.

A winning program can more than compensate for running out of pizza in the first quarter. But I would like to elevate the entire package.

[RPS]

ding. ding. we have a winner. put a good product out on the field (ie, a team that wins) and people will show up -- and contrary to what so many people on here believe, it doesn't work the opposite way. the hot dog/bathroom/parking blather that continually gets batted around on here just distracts from the real issues causing duke to be not so good at football.No one disputes that a winning football team is by far the best way to grow attendance. But you miss some crucial facts. A potenial fan who might consider going to a game (or might even buy a season ticket), especially at the margin and especially with a family, is going to be concerned about the overall experience. I bought Jets season tickets years ago when I lived back east but quickly gave them up because the experience was so lousy, even though the Jets were a good team then. It happens. A good team has a better chance to overcome that, but a poor one -- much less so.

More importantly, a coach in a position like that TR is in -- looking to become competitive -- needs to convince recruits that he can get the job done. Part of doing that is making a good case that he has sufficient support to succeed. Anything that suggests that the university doesn't care and/or doesn't support the program hurts a coach's ability to recruit in a significant way. When a parent brings a recruit to a game at WW, what impressions do you think s/he leaves with?