Joe Torre Job status

[EarlJam]

I hate the Yankees. Always have, always will (in a sports rivalry kind of way). But Joe Torre. Man. I'm watching the post-game/series press conference now. He's all class. Best of luck Joe to whatever you may do next. You've been incredible for baseball over the years.

Cheers to Joe Torre.

-EarlJam

[devildeac]

I hate the Yankees. Always have, always will (in a sports rivalry kind of way). But Joe Torre. Man. I'm watching the post-game/series press conference now. He's all class. Best of luck Joe to whatever you may do next. You've been incredible for baseball over the years.

Cheers to Joe Torre.

-EarlJam

My memory is failing. Wasn't he manager of the Braves for a while back in their terrible years? If so, for how long?

[TillyGalore]

My memory is failing. Wasn't he manager of the Braves for a while back in their terrible years? If so, for how long?

He did manage the Braves, and played for them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Torre

Wonder what, if anything, he'll do now.

[allenmurray]

The Yankees don't deserve him. My dream - that Cal Ripkin will buy the Orioles away from the evil Angelos and then hire Torre to manage the team.

[EarlJam]

The Yankees don't deserve him. My dream - that Cal Ripkin will buy the Orioles away from the evil Angelos and then hire Torre to manage the team.

THAT, my friend, is one beautiful dream!

And let me add to it a bit. As I see this dream unfolding, I turn on the television to see Mel Procter and John Lowenstein in the broadcast booth, ready to call the game.

-EarlJam

[TillyGalore]

The Yankees don't deserve him. My dream - that Cal Ripkin will buy the Orioles away from the evil Angelos and then hire Torre to manage the team.

Is this too much to hope for?

My father suggested Torre for the O's until I reminded him they signed Trembley already. I wish the O's had waited until after the WS to sign a manager to see who was available. Especially since the O's had 30 runs scored against them before the ink was dry on Trembley's contract. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[allenmurray]

THAT, my friend, is one beautiful dream!

And let me add to it a bit. As I see this dream unfolding, I turn on the television to see Mel Procter and John Lowenstein in the broadcast booth, ready to call the game.

-EarlJam

I loved Lowenstien in the booth. Baseball saavy, funny, and almost always the smartest guy in the room.

[Bluedawg]

I hate the Yankees. Always have, always will (in a sports rivalry kind of way). But Joe Torre. Man. I'm watching the post-game/series press conference now. He's all class. Best of luck Joe to whatever you may do next. You've been incredible for baseball over the years.

Cheers to Joe Torre.

-EarlJam

Bring him back to Atlanta where he belongs.

[allenmurray]

THAT, my friend, is one beautiful dream!

And let me add to it a bit. As I see this dream unfolding, I turn on the television to see Mel Procter and John Lowenstein in the broadcast booth, ready to call the game.

-EarlJam

Even better, they are doing the game on radio - that way I can listen to them on headphones while I sit at Camden Yards eating a crab cake sandwhich.

[rasputin]

My memory is failing. Wasn't he manager of the Braves for a while back in their terrible years? If so, for how long?

He wasn't there in the terrible years. Only from '82 to '84, they won the NL West in '82, and the lowest win total as Braves manager is 80. Torre did manage some really terrible Mets teams before that.

[duke74]

He wasn't there in the terrible years. Only from '82 to '84, they won the NL West in '82, and the lowest win total as Braves manager is 80. Torre did manage some really terrible Mets teams before that.

As a Mets fan since the first year (62), I remember those awful teams. Joe always struck me as a manager that needed to be in the right situation (I know, who doesn't?). He probably won't win games on his decision making alone during the game, but probably wouldn't lose many either. His strength (and weakness) is over a longer horizon. He's a great clubhouse guy, treating players with respect and professionalism. A "grandfather" type relying on strong team members (e.g, O'Neill, Jeter, etc) for the fire and kicks in the butt. He also tends to overwork the bullpen, so longer term they might burn out and perform at even a lower level than their abilities would suggest. (Then again, with this year's starting pitching I can see why the buullpen was called on earlier than one would hope for.)

Joe is a gentleman; I don't think George deserves him. I'd trade him straight up for his protege taking up space on MY bench.

[dukemomLA]

GO CAL. A class guy with more baseball knowledge in his fingertips than most have in their whole bodies. PLEASE let him sign with my METS. The O's don't deserve him -- although I doubt he'd go anywhere else. He loves his minor league team in Maryland. Anyway, I'll root for Cal wherever he goes.

And, yeah -- Let's see him buy the Orioles. please, please.

[jimbonelson]

why would cal sign witht the mets he is born and raised aberdeen boy and althogh he loves the ironbirds he loves the babe ruth baseball world series that comes to his aberdeen stadium every year

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I hope George is smart enough to keep Joe Torre as manager. And I think he is.

[DukeUsul]

Torre is great. He's impossible to hate no matter how hard I try. I'd love to see him move on to somewhere else where he can work for a decent human being. Then I can admit it openly.

Plus the bonus - if he is forced out, then half those overpriced, aging Yankees players will bolt and we'll see Steinbrenner shamed as the Yanks plummet to the bottom of the AL East....... ah, a man can dream, can't he?

[EarlJam]

I hope George is smart enough to keep Joe Torre as manager. And I think he is.

Really though, if you were Torre, would you want to come back after being publicly threatened and talked down to by your boss like that?

"Hey everyone! I want you all to know that if Ozzie doesn't come through on this one, I'm going to can him! I can do that because I have absolute power!"

Suddenly everyone's talking: "Did you hear about Ozzie? His arse is going to be grass if he doesn't win the Pensky account! George really laid into him!"

Then, after losing the account, the very next day everyone's discussing your future: "So has he fired Ozzie yet? Oh man, he's SO gone! Poor Ozzie."

Forget that man. I'd tell George to shove it either way. It's not like Torre needs the money. The ONLY thing I can think of that would make me want to stay in that situation is if the players were really counting on me to come back.

-EarlJam

[TillyGalore]

http://www.wral.com/sports/baseball/mlb/story/1944751/

What do you, DBR members, read into this? Is Torre looking for more money? Is he ready to say goodbye George (my theory)? What do you read into this?

[dbb03]

takes balls to turn down that kind of money but they really didnt show him respect. the guy's record is phenomenal and unless he wins it all they place the blame on him.

[Bluedawg]

Send him home to Atlanta

[EarlJam]

Send him home to Atlanta

$24.50 for a Yankees Cap

$375.00 for a round trip ticket to New York City

$100.00 limo fare to Yankee Stadium to meet with George Steinbrenner

Saying Thanks but NO Thanks to your ego-manic, disrespectful boss and telling him to take his Louisville Slugger and shove it where the sun don't shine..................PRICELESS.

-EarlJam

[mapei]

They basically fired him by giving him a take-it-or-leave-it pay cut with a one-year contract. Nobody with any dignity would have said yes to that. Good luck to Joe, a class act, in whatever is next in his life.

[BlueDevilBaby]

Can't blame Joe at all - how he lasted that long with George's crap year after year after year is beyond me. But, as a Yankees fan, I am truly :( and :mad: Ok, I'm over it now.

[dukie8]

They basically fired him by giving him a take-it-or-leave-it pay cut with a one-year contract. Nobody with any dignity would have said yes to that. Good luck to Joe, a class act, in whatever is next in his life.

that's ridiculous. he still would have been the highest paid manager by AT LEAST $1.5MM (pinella was the second highest at $3.5MM compared to torre's $7.5MM). they gave him incentives and if he made the world series, the contract automatically would have extended. he doesn't want to have to earn his money like most other people? his last contract was completely off market (> 2x the 2nd highest contract). turning down that contract is pure greed on his part.

his record may have been great in the 90s, but, after 2000, it was downright weak. there is no reason for the yankees to pay more than twice the 2nd highest paid manager to lose (and lose ugly) in the first round of the playoffs. i'd rather take that extra $5MM and put it in a lefty for the bullpen (shockingly, the yankees played the indians without a lefty in the pen).

i also think that, despite what all of the talking heads in ny believe, they should tell arod to take a hike and use that money on santana. it's been proven too many times that arod doesn't get it done in the post season and the yankees are all about the post season. the common argument is that they would not have gotten to the post season without arod but i don't buy that either. good hitting 3bs come a dime and dozen and anyone batting clean-up in that lineup is going to get a ton of rbis. heck, even matsui and abreu, both of whom had very very average years, cranked out over 100 rbis. i'd much rather give it a go with a random 3b who is going to get 100 rbis and santana every 5th game than arod's 150 rbis and [fill-in the blank with a terrible yankee 5th starter]. that team then is much better in the post season, where dominant starting pitching wins. moreover, arod is delusional and wants gretzky comp -- $35MMish and a cut of the ownership. good riddance with him too. so it actually would be santana plus another all star caliber player to sign him. no thanks.

[dbb03]

his record may have been great in the 90s, but, after 2000, it was downright weak.

2001 AL East NewYorkY 95 65 .594 AL 1
2002 AL East NewYorkY 103 58 .640 1
2003 AL East NewYorkY 101 61 .623 AL 1
2004 AL East NewYorkY 101 61 .623 1
2005 AL East NewYorkY 95 67 .586 1
2006 AL East NewYorkY 97 65 .599 1
2007 AL East NewYorkY 94 68 .580 2
+----+-----------+--------+---+-----+----+----+------+------

looks pretty impressive to me.

[dbb03]

2001 AL East NewYorkY 95 65 .594 AL 1
2002 AL East NewYorkY 103 58 .640 1
2003 AL East NewYorkY 101 61 .623 AL 1
2004 AL East NewYorkY 101 61 .623 1
2005 AL East NewYorkY 95 67 .586 1
2006 AL East NewYorkY 97 65 .599 1
2007 AL East NewYorkY 94 68 .580 2
+----+-----------+--------+---+-----+----+----+------+------

looks pretty impressive to me.

and for good measure:

Torre is the most successful manager in modern baseball history. He has delivered the Yankees to 12 consecutive postseasons. The next longest active streak by a franchise? That would be one.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Really though, if you were Torre, would you want to come back after being publicly threatened and talked down to by your boss like that?

"Hey everyone! I want you all to know that if Ozzie doesn't come through on this one, I'm going to can him! I can do that because I have absolute power!"

Suddenly everyone's talking: "Did you hear about Ozzie? His arse is going to be grass if he doesn't win the Pensky account! George really laid into him!"

Then, after losing the account, the very next day everyone's discussing your future: "So has he fired Ozzie yet? Oh man, he's SO gone! Poor Ozzie."

Forget that man. I'd tell George to shove it either way. It's not like Torre needs the money. The ONLY thing I can think of that would make me want to stay in that situation is if the players were really counting on me to come back.

-EarlJam

First off, I think Torre did the right thing in turning George down.

As to your post, I am a self-employed commission salesman. If I don't sell something, and if the customer doesn't pay for it, I don't get paid. And if it si something that I bought to resell, I'm out the cost of the stuff until the customer pays me. THAT is pressure. Worrying about some boss somewhere and what he or she thinks is the farthest thing from my mind.

[dukie8]

and for good measure:

Torre is the most successful manager in modern baseball history. He has delivered the Yankees to 12 consecutive postseasons. The next longest active streak by a franchise? That would be one.

and with the highest payroll in the history of sports, he has delivered a grand total of 0 championships since 2000 and hasn't been able to get out of the first round the last 3 years (and it's not like the series were even close). pretty unimpressive to me -- particularly when his comp was MORE than twice the 2nd highest paid manager. we are not in the 90s anymore. turn the page.

the other thing to note is that when torre sat down with cashman/the boss at the start of the season, do you think that they defined "success" merely by making the post season? i very highly doubt that either of them ever told torre that his target was to make the post season and nothing more. in most other jobs, when you repeatedly fail at what you are expected to accomplish, no matter how unrealistic, you get canned.

[dbb03]

and with the highest payroll in the history of sports, he has delivered a grand total of 0 championships since 2000 and hasn't been able to get out of the first round the last 3 years (and it's not like the series were even close). pretty unimpressive to me -- particularly when his comp was MORE than twice the 2nd highest paid manager. we are not in the 90s anymore. turn the page.

the other thing to note is that when torre sat down with cashman/the boss at the start of the season, do you think that they defined "success" merely by making the post season? i very highly doubt that either of them ever told torre that his target was to make the post season and nothing more. in most other jobs, when you repeatedly fail at what you are expected to accomplish, no matter how unrealistic, you get canned.

okay then, looks like you sharre the opinion of the yankee brass. Good thing Steinbrenners, et al. aren't the Duke AD!

[Mal]

they should tell arod to take a hike and use that money on santana. it's been proven too many times that arod doesn't get it done in the post season and the yankees are all about the post season. the common argument is that they would not have gotten to the post season without arod but i don't buy that either. good hitting 3bs come a dime and dozen and anyone batting clean-up in that lineup is going to get a ton of rbis. heck, even matsui and abreu, both of whom had very very average years, cranked out over 100 rbis. i'd much rather give it a go with a random 3b who is going to get 100 rbis and santana every 5th game than arod's 150 rbis and [fill-in the blank with a terrible yankee 5th starter]. that team then is much better in the post season, where dominant starting pitching wins. moreover, arod is delusional and wants gretzky comp -- $35MMish and a cut of the ownership. good riddance with him too. so it actually would be santana plus another all star caliber player to sign him. no thanks.

Wait, Santana's a free agent this offseason? My god, how could the Twins have miscalculated so badly, thinking they had him under wraps for one more season? ;)

I'm just tweaking you (and you may be willing to drop A-Rod now and wait a year for Johan), but you sounded like the stereotypical Yankees fan right there. "Let's just tell the best hitter in the game to shove it and go out and sign the best pitcher in the game. What? He's under contract for another season? How dare they? We're the Yankees!"

Unless I'm mistaken, the decision to go or stay is entirely A-Rod's, based on his contract. They might press him to leave, but it's not going to be free. Also, I'm sure he and Scott Boras are fully cognizant of the fact that a player is prohibited from having an ownership interest in an MLB franchise, so I'm not sure where you're getting the "cut of the ownership" thing. In addition, note that there were a grand total of 7 3B in all of MLB with 100 RBI this season. I'm not going look into free agency status on the other 6, but methinks you're ever-so-slightly overestimating the simplicity of replacing A-Rod's production at third base.

On the Johan front, if you want him immediately, the Twins will not part with him without a young middle of the rotation starter (rather scarce in NY right now) and a legitimate star 3B or DH, despite only having one season left with him on his contract. So your calculus on losses and gains changes significantly. The Twins are likely committed to re-signing one of Hunter or Santana, so it's not like they've completely given up on having him for the rest of his career. Carl Pohlad may be Monty Burns, but he paid the biggest contract ever seen at the time to keep Kirby Puckett a Twin, and they're opening a new stadium in a few years, and if they dump Hunter's 15 million a season, that frees up a lot of money. All the Mets and Yankee and BoSox fans seem to think there's some kind of fire sale going on.

The Yankees need to worry about their woeful rotation and the possible losses of Posada and Abreu along with Torre. If Rivera leaves, they're left without a decent setup guy in the 'pen when Joba moves to the closer role. That's a lot of potential turmoil. To be shouting from the rooftops that the Yankees should say good riddance to a guy who anchored the lineup and just put together an incredible season seems a little misguided right now. It would free up money to plug the other gaps, but there are no sure things in free agent pickups.

[Bluedawg]

and for good measure:

Torre is the most successful manager in modern baseball history. He has delivered the Yankees to 12 consecutive postseasons. The next longest active streak by a franchise? That would be one.

Actually, Atlanta's is longer

[hc5duke]

Actually, Atlanta's is longer

I think dbb is talking about "active" streaks only.

[dukie8]

okay then, looks like you sharre the opinion of the yankee brass. Good thing Steinbrenners, et al. aren't the Duke AD!

i actually do. if your boss tells you that he wants x done during the year and you also have negotiated a completely off-market comp package, you have to expect that you will canned if you don't deliver. steinbrenner told torre that he expected a world series and torre didn't deliver. if torre didn't like that expectation, then he shouldn't have agreed to manage the team for $7.5MM this year.

his comments today about how he didn't think that he needed a contract with incentives, that motivation wasn't needed and that having such a contract would have put too much pressure on himself and his players was laughable. is he aware of how most people work in this country??? i think that it is best for the team that someone so smug and so complacent moves on.

[dukie8]

Wait, Santana's a free agent this offseason? My god, how could the Twins have miscalculated so badly, thinking they had him under wraps for one more season? ;)
*wait, if you sign arod for $35MM/year in the offseason, you won't have any money left to sign santana next year or trade for him during the season next year. it's not rocket science planning further out than a week. professional teams clear out payroll all the time to make way for a future all star free agent.

Unless I'm mistaken, the decision to go or stay is entirely A-Rod's, based on his contract. They might press him to leave, but it's not going to be free. Also, I'm sure he and Scott Boras are fully cognizant of the fact that a player is prohibited from having an ownership interest in an MLB franchise, so I'm not sure where you're getting the "cut of the ownership" thing. In addition, note that there were a grand total of 7 3B in all of MLB with 100 RBI this season. I'm not going look into free agency status on the other 6, but methinks you're ever-so-slightly overestimating the simplicity of replacing A-Rod's production at third base.
*arod is driven by greed and he is going to go where the most money is. the yankees have the most money so if they want him he is theirs. end of story. whether or not mlb would allow arod to own part of a team is immaterial to the fact that there are plenty of rumors out there regarding this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3033203

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/on_a_rod_ownership_and_wild_rumors/

http://sportsagent.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/alex-rodriguez-future-owner-of-the-cubs/

no other 3b got to bat clean-up in that lineup with guys on base for what seemed like every at bat. look what happened to lowell when he was inserted into the lethal boston lineup -- he played a minimum of 150 games the past 3 seasons and his rbi totals were a lofty 85, 58 and 80 those years. 1 year in boston and he shoots up to 120. i have little doubt that the yankees can dig up a 3b who will produce 100 rbi in that lineup. besides, hitting wasn't their problem as they outscored the 2nd highest scoring team by 76 runs. a little drop-off in hitting isn't going to matter that much if they can get an ace to anchor the staff. moreover, arod could have driven in 200 rbis but it won't change his 1 rbi in the post season since 2004.

On the Johan front, if you want him immediately, the Twins will not part with him without a young middle of the rotation starter (rather scarce in NY right now) and a legitimate star 3B or DH, despite only having one season left with him on his contract. So your calculus on losses and gains changes significantly. The Twins are likely committed to re-signing one of Hunter or Santana, so it's not like they've completely given up on having him for the rest of his career. Carl Pohlad may be Monty Burns, but he paid the biggest contract ever seen at the time to keep Kirby Puckett a Twin, and they're opening a new stadium in a few years, and if they dump Hunter's 15 million a season, that frees up a lot of money. All the Mets and Yankee and BoSox fans seem to think there's some kind of fire sale going on.
*do you watch the yankees??? "young middle of the rotation starter(s)" are what the yankees are bursting with. ever hear of hughes, chamberlain, kennedy or wang? the yankees have the trade bait but the question is do they want to use it. this blog nicely sums it up:

http://blog.nj.com/yankees/2007/10/santana_in_pinstripes.html

moreover, the twins have 2 more monster contracts on the horizon -- mauer's and morneau's. things are going to get ugly there fast. i'm not sure why you equate what was going on 15 years ago with puckett with today. the size of the contracts are astronomically larger today. arod's comp alone was almost larger than some team's entire starting lineups. only a few teams can pay that kind of coin. unfortunately, it is not a fire sale, but rather, a free agent auction that only the richest teams can play in. the yanks are one of those teams.

The Yankees need to worry about their woeful rotation and the possible losses of Posada and Abreu along with Torre. If Rivera leaves, they're left without a decent setup guy in the 'pen when Joba moves to the closer role. That's a lot of potential turmoil. To be shouting from the rooftops that the Yankees should say good riddance to a guy who anchored the lineup and just put together an incredible season seems a little misguided right now. It would free up money to plug the other gaps, but there are no sure things in free agent pickups.
*um, no. it would do A LOT more than "plug the other gaps." it would free up enough money to pay santana. the yanks, with santana plus a random 3b who is going to have 30 rbi more than normal in that lineup, would have been better than the yanks we saw this year with arod and whoever the 5th starter of the week was. more importantly, they would have been exponentially better in the postseason with that lineup because you would have gotten santana, instead of wang, twice in the first series.

[jimsumner]

IMO, Torre was treated shabbily and reacted with a lot more class and dignity than I could have mustered under the circumstances.

What irks me most of all is that the Yankees clearly didn't want him back but didn't have the nerve to fire him. Instead, they tried to finesse things to make it look like Torre quit. Just goes to show how much contempt they have for their fan base and the game in general.

The salary isn't the insult, the one-year offer is. After a dozen extremely successful seasons, the man shouldn't have to endure a one-year audition to keep his job. If Igawa warrants a multi-year contract, then Torre certainly does.

As far as the first-round losses go, this is baseball, a sport that demonstrates its strengths and weaknesses in long, slow arcs over a six-month period. A best-of-five series is a crapshoot, nothing more, nothing less. Does anyone seriously think the Rockies are one of the two best teams in the majors? Or the 83-78 Cards last year?

[pfrduke]

Does anyone seriously think the Rockies are one of the two best teams in the majors? Or the 83-78 Cards last year?

This is more a product of the difference in the relative strengths of the leagues. I do seriously think that, as currently constructed (i.e., with Corpas at closer, Morales and Jimenez in the rotation, other mid-season changes, etc.), the Rockies are the best team in the NL. Honestly, the only one that I might pick as better would be the Mets. Also, I think the two best teams in the AL are the two still alive. The fact that both of these teams (and the Angels, and the Yankees, and the Tigers) are better than anyone the NL can turn out doesn't mean that the Rockies don't belong in the WS.

But I'm with you 100% that the MLB playoffs are a crapshoot.

[dukie8]

IMO, Torre was treated shabbily and reacted with a lot more class and dignity than I could have mustered under the circumstances.

What irks me most of all is that the Yankees clearly didn't want him back but didn't have the nerve to fire him. Instead, they tried to finesse things to make it look like Torre quit. Just goes to show how much contempt they have for their fan base and the game in general.

The salary isn't the insult, the one-year offer is. After a dozen extremely successful seasons, the man shouldn't have to endure a one-year audition to keep his job. If Igawa warrants a multi-year contract, then Torre certainly does.

As far as the first-round losses go, this is baseball, a sport that demonstrates its strengths and weaknesses in long, slow arcs over a six-month period. A best-of-five series is a crapshoot, nothing more, nothing less. Does anyone seriously think the Rockies are one of the two best teams in the majors? Or the 83-78 Cards last year?

someone has to be working for you to be able to fire them. torre didn't have a contract -- his had expired. the yankees offered him a new one (that they expected him to reject) and he rejected it. to be clear, nobody was fired or quit.

the rockies have WON 21 of 22. they aren't the 2006 cardinals. that is downright dominating. i do agree that the playoffs are flukey and the best team often loses. however, the yankees have looked awful the past 3 years in getting knocked out in the first round. however, 3 straight years and 7 without a world series title aren't flukey.

it's clear from how torre managed and his comments this week that he was complacent and had a ridiculous sense of entitlement. his comments about thinking that it was beneath him to have incentives in his contract and that it would put too much "pressure" on himself and the players were beyond laughable. he would have come across as a complete class act if he had just said no to the yankees and then publicly just said that they couldn't reach an agreement. the "insulting" comment was equally laughable as the contract offer still was over 40% larger than the next largest contract and had the potentially to become even larger than his most recent one. i actually think that performance-based short-dated contracts are where professional sports teams should be heading. how many more pavanos, giambis, kevin browns, etc will it take before someone realizes that these ridiculous guarantees are unheard of in nearly every other industry?

the other dirty little secret that joe should try and keep under wraps is that the manager has very little to do with how a team plays. baseball isn't basketball or football where the coach is vital. torre was an entirely mediocre manager before he got to the yankees and, if he lands somewhere else without jeter, rivera, posada, etc, my guess is that he will revert back to mediocrity.

[mapei]

Did he kick your dog or something?

[dukie8]

Did he kick your dog or something?

no. i'm just very sick of hearing the ny media slobber all over the guy like he is mother theresa.

[EarlJam]

no. i'm just very sick of hearing the ny media slobber all over the guy like he is mother theresa.

Your comment about Torre being mediocre when/if he goes to a team with far less talent just made me think of Leo Mazzone. He was and is worshiped in Atlanta. I love the guy too. But everyone was talking about how much of a pitching coach genius he was. He may be, but had Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz and company by his side. He went to Baltimore and, well, THUD.

Now the O's did have a horrible run with injuries, but still.....THUD.

It just takes talent.

-EarlJam

[pfrduke]

the other dirty little secret that joe should try and keep under wraps is that the manager has very little to do with how a team plays. baseball isn't basketball or football where the coach is vital. torre was an entirely mediocre manager before he got to the yankees and, if he lands somewhere else without jeter, rivera, posada, etc, my guess is that he will revert back to mediocrity.

Just so we're clear with one another, you take the position that Torre doesn't get credit for making 12 consecutive post-seasons because his team was stacked, but when the players don't come through in the post-season, it's Torre's fault and he's obviously a mediocre manager. You can't have it both ways dude. And I'd wager you've never played or coached high-level (high school varsity or beyond) baseball, or had a lot of conversations with people who have. Managers can have a ton of difference on a baseball team, particularly over the course of a 162-game season. If Torre really mattered as little as you seem to think he does, why would so many Yankee players lobby so hard for and speak so highly of him?

Look, success is always a combination of talent and coaching. And you'd be mistaken to think that the Yankees run from 96-07 is attributable to talent alone. Torre earned himself a place in the Hall of Fame with this 12-year run, because he knew how to manage the talent he had to optimize the results.

I can't disagree with the Yankees' decision to let him go. They've decided that getting to the World Series on an annual basis (or at least more often than once in the past 7 seasons) is the expectation, and that anything less is insufficient. And regardless of whether you lay the blame on the players or the manager, the Yankees haven't done that. So if the Yankees want to take it out on the manager, that's their prerogative. But to say that Torre is average or mediocre is untrue. He's certainly above average and likely among the handful of superior leaders (with Cox, Francona, LaRussa, Piniella, and Scioscia) in MLB today.

[dukie8]

Just so we're clear with one another, you take the position that Torre doesn't get credit for making 12 consecutive post-seasons because his team was stacked, but when the players don't come through in the post-season, it's Torre's fault and he's obviously a mediocre manager. You can't have it both ways dude. And I'd wager you've never played or coached high-level (high school varsity or beyond) baseball, or had a lot of conversations with people who have. Managers can have a ton of difference on a baseball team, particularly over the course of a 162-game season. If Torre really mattered as little as you seem to think he does, why would so many Yankee players lobby so hard for and speak so highly of him?

Look, success is always a combination of talent and coaching. And you'd be mistaken to think that the Yankees run from 96-07 is attributable to talent alone. Torre earned himself a place in the Hall of Fame with this 12-year run, because he knew how to manage the talent he had to optimize the results.

I can't disagree with the Yankees' decision to let him go. They've decided that getting to the World Series on an annual basis (or at least more often than once in the past 7 seasons) is the expectation, and that anything less is insufficient. And regardless of whether you lay the blame on the players or the manager, the Yankees haven't done that. So if the Yankees want to take it out on the manager, that's their prerogative. But to say that Torre is average or mediocre is untrue. He's certainly above average and likely among the handful of superior leaders (with Cox, Francona, LaRussa, Piniella, and Scioscia) in MLB today.

sorry to burst your bubble but both of my roommates at duke were on the baseball team and 1 of them played pro ball after duke. we had extensive conversations about baseball. my guess is that whatever conversations you have had over the years about baseball were with people much less involved than the people i know.

if you bothered to read what i wrote, i said that torre was a mediocre manager BEFORE he got to the yankees. his run in the late 90s was splendid but i question how much of that he was responsible for. i also think that he had a lot less to do with the team's poor performance in the 2000s than many people believe. i just don't think a baseball manager has that much of an impact on how a team does. are you going to tell me that when to call a pitchout or where to position the outfielders is the same has the stategy involved with coaching basketball and football? moreover, torre was infamous for not doing much with scouting. he shunned the use of statistics and rarely made decisions based on historical data.

the fact that the yankees "lobbied" (i have not read a single instance of a player contacting management) so hard for his has nothing to do with whether he is a good manager. of course the players liked him -- he sat around and let them do whatever they wanted and never got on them about anything. a "players'" manager isn't necessarily (and usually isn't) the best manager because he had no control over the team doesn't respond to him (sound familiar?) everyone knew torre's I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. was on the line and what did they go out and do?

what do you think the yankees woud have done if, say, some random person managed them from 2001-07? i would argue it wouldn't have been much worse than what they actually did. do you really believe that if you or i managed them this year, then they would have turned into an 81-win team? please. they may actually have been better because mussina would have been yanked much sooner and the bullpen would not have been mismanaged as badly. with that said, torre had zero control over some of that absolutely horrendous player decisions that have been made over the past few years (eg, pavano, igawa, k brown, damon, giambi, etc). it wasn't his fault that he had a bunch of clowns in the bullpen and, for the first 2 months, some of the worst starting pitching seen this side of tampa and texas.

as you correctly pointed out, the expectation of managing the yankees is that you win world series. maybe not every year, but you have to be in striking distance more often that not. the yankees haven't had a whiff of the world series in years and that doesn't cut if for steinbrenner. that may be unrealistic but it is his team and he has shelled out close to a billion dollars in comp since 2000 so he can do as he wishes. i will say that whoever follows torre is going to have tough job ahead. kind of like gut at unc. i would rather be the guy who follows the next manager than the next manager (a la roy).

[pfrduke]

sorry to burst your bubble but both of my roommates at duke were on the baseball team and 1 of them played pro ball after duke. we had extensive conversations about baseball. my guess is that whatever conversations you have had over the years about baseball were with people much less involved than the people i know.

if you bothered to read what i wrote, i said that torre was a mediocre manager BEFORE he got to the yankees. his run in the late 90s was splendid but i question how much of that he was responsible for. i also think that he had a lot less to do with the team's poor performance in the 2000s than many people believe. i just don't think a baseball manager has that much of an impact on how a team does. are you going to tell me that when to call a pitchout or where to position the outfielders is the same has the stategy involved with coaching basketball and football? moreover, torre was infamous for not doing much with scouting. he shunned the use of statistics and rarely made decisions based on historical data.

the fact that the yankees "lobbied" (i have not read a single instance of a player contacting management) so hard for his has nothing to do with whether he is a good manager. of course the players liked him -- he sat around and let them do whatever they wanted and never got on them about anything. a "players'" manager isn't necessarily (and usually isn't) the best manager because he had no control over the team doesn't respond to him (sound familiar?) everyone knew torre's I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. was on the line and what did they go out and do?

what do you think the yankees woud have done if, say, some random person managed them from 2001-07? i would argue it wouldn't have been much worse than what they actually did. do you really believe that if you or i managed them this year, then they would have turned into an 81-win team? please. they may actually have been better because mussina would have been yanked much sooner and the bullpen would not have been mismanaged as badly. with that said, torre had zero control over some of that absolutely horrendous player decisions that have been made over the past few years (eg, pavano, igawa, k brown, damon, giambi, etc). it wasn't his fault that he had a bunch of clowns in the bullpen and, for the first 2 months, some of the worst starting pitching seen this side of tampa and texas.

as you correctly pointed out, the expectation of managing the yankees is that you win world series. maybe not every year, but you have to be in striking distance more often that not. the yankees haven't had a whiff of the world series in years and that doesn't cut if for steinbrenner. that may be unrealistic but it is his team and he has shelled out close to a billion dollars in comp since 2000 so he can do as he wishes. i will say that whoever follows torre is going to have tough job ahead. kind of like gut at unc. i would rather be the guy who follows the next manager than the next manager (a la roy).

Actually, we're on a similar page as far as personal experience goes - no baseball playing roommates at Duke for me, but a high school teammate who I've stayed in close touch with has made the majors, and I have another close family friend working his way up through the minors.

I'll agree with you that in-game, a baseball manager probably has less to do with a team's success than in other sports (although not as much less as you think - there are literally infinite decisions a manager can make that have impact, in some way or another, on the outcome). But the real job of a manager, I think, is handling the team for 162-game season - dealing with egos, slumps, injuries, playing time issues, etc. This is where I think people like you and I might struggle.

I'm with you that Torre has his shortcomings - he's notorious for overusing his favorites in the bullpen, and being a little too loyal to some bench guys who don't bring a lot to the table. And as I said, if the Yankees want to can him, that's their business. But I don't think that just anyone would have had the same success as Torre did over the past 12 seasons, and I do think he's well above average as a manager.