John Daly

[gw67]

Sally Jenkins has a terrific (and funny) column on John Daly and his first round in the PGA. I would like to see JD hold it together during this tournament but I suspect that the odds are too great. Like others, I plan to watch his round on the tube this afternoon (starts at 3:05pm I believe).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/09/AR2007080902216.html

gw67

[Windsor]

I watched yesterday...I love Daly...and would really like to see him finish well. He's like the "anti-Tiger" and much closer to the everyday golfer than anyone else on the tour (except for the driving 350+ yards)
I don't think he can hold up for three more days in the heat...but I'll be pulling for him

[JasonEvans]

He has started his 2nd round bogey-bogey... but he is fun to watch. He tried to drive the par-4 10th which has a nasty dogleg and features a green surrounded by trees. No one in their right mind would try to drive that hole.

-Jason "Tiger birdied #1-- I expect him to get to about 1 or maybe 2 under today... steady and consistent" Evans

[Lavabe]

-Jason "Tiger birdied #1-- I expect him to get to about 1 or maybe 2 under today... steady and consistent" Evans

Tiger: 63?!?!?!?!?!

Imagine had he not lipped out of the last hole. What an amazing round!
Cheers,
Lavabe

[JasonEvans]

Tiger: 63?!?!?!?!?!

Imagine had he not lipped out of the last hole. What an amazing round!


Yeah, I cannot believe that putt did not fall. It missed by a blade of grass.

In fairness, Tiger drained a 30-footer for par earlier in his round on a putt that also circled the cup before falling so he was 1-for-2 on round-the-cup-putts. Seems fair ;)

What a stunningly good round... wow!

-Jason "I wonder if anyone will be within 4 strokes of him on Sunday" Evans

[hurleyfor3]

The tournament's over.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Yeah, I cannot believe that putt did not fall. It missed by a blade of grass.

In fairness, Tiger drained a 30-footer for par earlier in his round on a putt that also circled the cup before falling so he was 1-for-2 on round-the-cup-putts. Seems fair ;)

What a stunningly good round... wow!

-Jason "I wonder if anyone will be within 4 strokes of him on Sunday" Evans

I believe the putt you are referring to was for birdie (on 15).

Tiger is the best there has ever been. He's the best putter in history. When he makes all the putts, he blows the field away. When he misses the putts, he's in contention. He is simply amazing.

Daly is certainly fun to watch. It is also fun to listen to the commentators make fun of him. Fortunately, Daly doesn't care what people say about him.

[dukemomLA]

I love Tiger! I love Tiger! I love Tiger! -- not only because he's proven to be so magnificent both physically and mentally, but because I've followed him throughout his amateur career as well. He's a class act in all ways -- which is not something one can say for a lot of supposed "athlete role models." (Although Elton and Shane are proving their worth in that department -- as have Nash and D. Fisher and many others). GO TIGER! P.S. Sergio needs an attitude adjustment to ever win a Major; Phil MIckelson...well, there's something about this guy that doesn't set well with me; VJ-- I used to like him some, until the Annika thing where he was a jerk, ....there are many players for whom I root and like, but Tiger is the MAN.

[Indoor66]

I love Tiger! I love Tiger! I love Tiger! -- not only because he's proven to be so magnificent both physically and mentally, but because I've followed him throughout his amateur career as well. He's a class act in all ways -- which is not something one can say for a lot of supposed "athlete role models." (Although Elton and Shane are proving their worth in that department -- as have Nash and D. Fisher and many others). GO TIGER! P.S. Sergio needs an attitude adjustment to ever win a Major; Phil MIckelson...well, there's something about this guy that doesn't set well with me; VJ-- I used to like him some, until the Annika thing where he was a jerk, ....there are many players for whom I root and like, but Tiger is the MAN.

IMO you are dead on. Sergio is not "tough or smart" enough and Phil is "brain dead". Els is "soft" and VJ is a "sanctimonious jerk". Tiger is the man, the only man. He is the best that ever is or was.

If you ask me I will tell you what I really :eek: think.

[JasonEvans]

Tiger is the man, the only man. He is the best that ever is or was.


Oh, I dunno. I'd still like to see how he would do against the Jack Nicklaus of the 1970s. In the 48 Majors played from 1970-1982, Jack finished in the top 10 in 41 of them. That's absurd. He won 10 times and was second 9 times.

The game has changed, the equipment has changed, the courses have changed so there is no way we can really match these two up but I think a solid case can be made that Jack Nicklaus in his mid-30s was every bit the player that Tiger Woods is today.

I think Tiger needs a few more years at this level to reach Jack's decade of dominance.

--Jason "and you won't find a bigger Tiger fan than me" Evans

[Indoor66]

Oh, I dunno. I'd still like to see how he would do against the Jack Nicklaus of the 1970s. In the 48 Majors played from 1970-1982, Jack finished in the top 10 in 41 of them. That's absurd. He won 10 times and was second 9 times.

The game has changed, the equipment has changed, the courses have changed so there is no way we can really match these two up but I think a solid case can be made that Jack Nicklaus in his mid-30s was every bit the player that Tiger Woods is today.

I think Tiger needs a few more years at this level to reach Jack's decade of dominance.

--Jason "and you won't find a bigger Tiger fan than me" Evans

I don't necessarily disagree. Tiger has yet to reach his mid-30s. You are comparing Jack, at what is usually considered to be the prime years of a players career with Tiger at the period that is within the "learning curve" of a career. At this moment Tiger is superior to Jack in every phase of the game at a comparable point in their careers.

The question you raise, IMO, is whether Tiger can continue to dominate into his 40's and my bet is: YES. :) (I am also a huge Jack fan, though I disliked his displacing Arnie in the early 60's....)

[Lavabe]

P.S. Sergio needs an attitude adjustment to ever win a Major;

He just DQ'd today for signing an incorrect scorecard (error for his 17th hole score).
Cheers,
Lavabe

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Oh, I dunno. I'd still like to see how he would do against the Jack Nicklaus of the 1970s.

Both are great strikers of the ball and hit the ball a long way. Both are great putters (and Tiger is better than Jack). But Tiger wins out with his short game, which definitely was Jack's biggest weakness.

I'm big fans of both, and Arnie too. I met Arnie in 1966 at Doral Country Club in Miami, the week before the tournament there (I was 11 and we (my family) were staying there for "February" vacation). I got his autograph on a dollar bill. I still have it somewhere.

[mapei]

He just DQ'd today for signing an incorrect scorecard (error for his 17th hole score).
Cheers,
Lavabe

Can someone explain to me why players need to keep scorecards at all in a major tournament?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Can someone explain to me why players need to keep scorecards at all in a major tournament?

They don't have to keep one, but they have to sign one at the end of the round to turn in their official score. Most players keep their own to insure no mistake is made resulting in a DQ. Sergio must have had a problem translating from English to Spanish today...

If you sign for a score that is lower than your actual score, you are DQ'd. If you sign for a score that is higher than you really had, you are not DQ'd and you have to keep that score as the official score.

[captmojo]

who lost the US Open back in the 60's due to incorrect card?

I think the reason also goes back to player etiquette. Such as divot replacement, et al.

[Lavabe]

They don't have to keep one, but they have to sign one at the end of the round to turn in their official score. Most players keep their own to insure no mistake is made resulting in a DQ. Sergio must have had a problem translating from English to Spanish today...

If you sign for a score that is lower than your actual score, you are DQ'd. If you sign for a score that is higher than you really had, you are not DQ'd and you have to keep that score as the official score.

If I am not mistaken, that was the hole where Sergio missed a 1&1/2 footer for his fourth shot, then made a 1&1/2 footer for 5. His playing partner, Boo Weekley, wrote down 4 (it DID look like an easy shot). Sergio signed it, but didn't check it. He's DQ'd.

Here's the story:
http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/pgachampionship07/news/story?id=2969945

Oy vei!
Lavabe

[captmojo]

Every time I see Sergio's face, my mind envisions Lefty with his two huge paws wrapped around his neck.

[Indoor66]

who lost the US Open back in the 60's due to incorrect card?

I think the reason also goes back to player etiquette. Such as divot replacement, et al.

You may be thinking of Roberto DeVicenzo from Brazil at the Masters. It was at the '68 Masters. He signed an incorrect scorecard when tied for the lead with Bob Golby. He was DQ'd and there was no playoff. He lost.

[captmojo]

Woody Austin sure has a beautiful swing for somebody wearing such an ugly colored cap.

[mapei]

If I am not mistaken, that was the hole where Sergio missed a 1&1/2 footer for his fourth shot, then made a 1&1/2 footer for 5. His playing partner, Boo Weekley, wrote down 4 (it DID look like an easy shot). Sergio signed it, but didn't check it. He's DQ'd.

Here's the story:
http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/pgachampionship07/news/story?id=2969945

Oy vei!
Lavabe

That strikes me as an extremely odd rule. Is there any other sport in which players in major championship rounds are responsible for the official score? Sheesh, it's not like they don't have officials to do those things. (How else would they know that it was erroneous?)

And, assuming that it's the opposing playing partner who is responsible for keeping a player's official score (this only gets stupider the more I think about it), a player is supposed to memorize his score on every single hole so he can verify it at the end of the round????? Shouldn't he be concentrating on, like, actually playing? Why do the players tolerate this?

Is there some reason I shouldn't prefer a sport that measures a player's ability to perform the athletic skill in question, not his ability to memorize something precisely that may have happened an hour or two previously?

I am perplexed by this.

[Indoor66]

That strikes me as an extremely odd rule. Is there any other sport in which players in major championship rounds are responsible for the official score? Sheesh, it's not like they don't have officials to do those things.

And, assuming that it's the opposing playing partner who is responsible for keeping a player's official score (this only gets stupider the more I think about it), a player is supposed to memorize his score on every single hole so he can verify it????? Shouldn't he be concentrating on, like, actually playing? Why do the players tolerate this?

In golf you are responsible to post your own score. You do this by signing a scorecard after the round that sets out your accurate score on each hole. Golfers also call themselves for rules infractions and impose penalties on themselves for rules violations. It is, to my knowledge, the only sport in which this is the practice. Golf is a game played by gentlemen. That may be an arcane concept to some but it is an extremely pleasant way to compete.

[hurleyfor3]

That strikes me as an extremely odd rule. Is there any other sport in which players in major championship rounds are responsible for the official score? Sheesh, it's not like they don't have officials to do those things. (How else would they know that it was erroneous?)

And, assuming that it's the opposing playing partner who is responsible for keeping a player's official score (this only gets stupider the more I think about it), a player is supposed to memorize his score on every single hole so he can verify it at the end of the round????? Shouldn't he be concentrating on, like, actually playing? Why do the players tolerate this?

Is there some reason I shouldn't prefer a sport that measures a player's ability to perform the athletic skill in question, not his ability to memorize something precisely that may have happened an hour or two previously?

I am perplexed by this.


The correct term for the person(s) you are paired with in stroke play is fellow competitor. One or two people are not your "opponent" in stroke play; the field is.

Anyway, the reason competitors keep each others' scores is to act as an additional check. Not everyone in every tournament is on national teevee, and keeping score is not the first job of rules officials and markers. Of course the assumption is players know their own score as well, and care enough to check it at the end of the round. This was Sergio's fault, not Boo's, and a guy like Sergio is not worthy of the benefit of the doubt here.

Roberto de Vincenzo recorded a higher score than he actually made at the '68 Masters. This score stood, and instead of tying for first with Bob Goalby he finished second. He was NOT DQ'd, and it is incorrect to call this event a "penalty stroke".

[mapei]

In tennis, we certainly keep/kept (I played a lot back in the day, not much now) our own score in "friendlies," at the high school level, and at the small-time college level on which my school competed. Likewise at the club level. When disputes arise, you have to resolve them the best you can. Sometimes there may be an amateur, club-level tournament in which there aren't anough officials to call the matches individually but there is a referee in charge who may be called upon to help resolve something.

This, too, can be pleasant, and in 90% of the matches I played it felt gentlemanly. It's also the only practical way to do it. But no one expects fellow competitors Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer to call their own match at Wimbledon. I don't understand why golf is different, but I take it from the responses that the custom, though perhaps antiquated and unnecessary at this point, is deeply imbedded in the culture of the game and not questioned.

Since this is the John Daly topic, I seem to recall that JD was once disqualified "for failing to sign a scorecard" when what he really did was storm off the course in a rage of anger.

[hurleyfor3]

I should clarify something... technically a "marker" is a person charged with keeping a player's score. A marker can be, and in most tournaments *is*, a fellow-competitor. However, the burden of posting the correct score always ultimately lies with the player.

[77devil]

You may be thinking of Roberto DeVicenzo from Brazil at the Masters. It was at the '68 Masters. He signed an incorrect scorecard when tied for the lead with Bob Golby. He was DQ'd and there was no playoff. He lost.

He was Argentinian.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

In golf you are responsible to post your own score. You do this by signing a scorecard after the round that sets out your accurate score on each hole. Golfers also call themselves for rules infractions and impose penalties on themselves for rules violations. It is, to my knowledge, the only sport in which this is the practice. Golf is a game played by gentlemen. That may be an arcane concept to some but it is an extremely pleasant way to compete.

Golf is also the only sport where a TV viewer can call a TV network and have a player assessed a penalty stroke for a violation the viewer saw on TV but the player, fellow competitors and rules officials missed. In fact, in the 90's this happened more than once, and one player in question (Fuzzy Zeoller?) was DQ'd the next day after the tournament officials reviewed the video tape from the day before and assessed the player a penalty shot for using a towel to "build his stance". He had placed a towel on the ground to prevent his pants leg from getting dirty and wet when he had to kneel down to his a shot in the rough. Once the penalty was applied to his previous day's score, the player had signed an incorrect score card and was DQ'd. I have long thought that this practice was beyond outrageous and should be changed/prohibited.

[hurleyfor3]

The teevee deeque guy was Craig Stadler in 1987.

Fuzzy did, however, have a famous towel-related incident at the 1984 U.S. Open. He stood on the 18th fairway and watched Greg Norman hole a shot out of the rough up ahead, and waved a towel in mock surrender.

[JasonEvans]

I am all for etiquette and tradition and all that jazz...

But DQing a guy in a major tournament for a mistake made by his playing partner that he did not correct-- well, that is just crazy. DQing a guy for signing a bad scorecard because a fan notinced something on TV that no one who was on the scene noticed is equally crazy.

It just does not make sense. In know it does not happen often, but that it happens at all is crazy.

-Jason "imagine the uproar if you DQ'd Tiger if he was leading or in major contention-- the TV network would flip out" Evans

[Indoor66]

I am all for etiquette and tradition and all that jazz...

But DQing a guy in a major tournament for a mistake made by his playing partner that he did not correct-- well, that is just crazy. DQing a guy for signing a bad scorecard because a fan notinced something on TV that no one who was on the scene noticed is equally crazy.

It just does not make sense. In know it does not happen often, but that it happens at all is crazy.

-Jason "imagine the uproar if you DQ'd Tiger if he was leading or in major contention-- the TV network would flip out" Evans

Tiger checks his card, as is his or Sergio's responsibility!

That is the game. Just like 3 outs in baseball. Those are the rules. There is personal responsibility.

In golf, other than marking down the score he is given for his playing partner, a player is only responsible for playing his own game within the rules and at the end of the round, attesting that the score posted is accurate.

Doesn't seem to difficult or burdonsome to me - in the context of a 5 or so hour round of golf with a caddy assisting the player.

[hurleyfor3]

-Jason "imagine the uproar if you DQ'd Tiger if he was leading or in major contention-- the TV network would flip out" Evans

If it were the Masters, CBS wouldn't flip out, because the last thing CBS wants is to lose the Masters.

If it were the US Open, it wouldn't matter, because the USGA doesn't care what teevee thinks. If it did it wouldn't still have an 18-hole playoff.

And US teevee isn't priority one to the Brits... they'd relish the opportunity to stick it to us merkins.

That leaves the PGA. And if it happened to Tiger, most people who actually follow golf, rather than follow Tiger Woods (as most people here seem to do), would hope the PGA puts principle first. Nobody is above the rules.

Why SHOULDN'T a player be responsible for his own scorecard? Is this too much to ask?

[Indoor66]

If it were the Masters, CBS wouldn't flip out, because the last thing CBS wants is to lose the Masters.

If it were the US Open, it wouldn't matter, because the USGA doesn't care what teevee thinks. If it did it wouldn't still have an 18-hole playoff.

And US teevee isn't priority one to the Brits... they'd relish the opportunity to stick it to us merkins.

That leaves the PGA. And if it happened to Tiger, most people who actually follow golf, rather than follow Tiger Woods (as most people here seem to do), would hope the PGA puts principle first. Nobody is above the rules.

Why SHOULDN'T a player be responsible for his own scorecard? Is this too much to ask?

You got it right! :)

[mapei]

>Why SHOULDN'T a player be responsible for his own scorecard?

Because it is extraneous to the skills required to play the game. Every other sport has come to that conclusion for major professional events, as far as I am aware. Would you have runners responsible for verifying that the timekeeping was recorded accurately? Why? Tennis players for verifying who won which games? To someone who is an outsider to the game of golf, it makes no sense. I can see there is considerable backlash from those to whom the game matters, so I respect that. That's the way it is, end of story. But I don't think there is a legitimate rationale for it.

[Windsor]

Golf does it that way because Golf has always done it that way. The world of Golf changes with the speed of a turtle through a sea of peanut butter....it was 100 in the shade and they were all wearing long pants because that's what you do (knickers are acceptable) at that level. When Annika Sorenstam played in a PGA event one of the debates was if she was going to wear pants (like the men). She wore pants. When Casey Martin sued to be able to use a cart you'd have thought he wanted to have Slappy the Clowns Mini Golf added to PGA tour.

Keeping your own score is a big deal for golf...it is heavily wrapped up in the 'honor of the game' mystique. My husband golfs (not well, but he loves it) and he doesn't have any trouble remembering every shot from all 18 holes...trust me on this....I get the post-round play by play ;) - there is plenty of time betwen shots/holes in golf to record your score...something that isn't true of running or tennis. In tennis it is hard to call the lines while your running to make your shot, or trying to return a serve. It wouldn't be possible to accurately call a 100+ mph serve in or out while actually trying to return the thing! Tennis players may not officially keep score but but I bet they would know instantly if their score was wrong!

[mapei]

>Tennis players may not officially keep score but but I bet they would know instantly if their score was wrong!

In my experience, they certainly claim to!

[Tom B.]

Fuzzy did, however, have a famous towel-related incident at the 1984 U.S. Open. He stood on the 18th fairway and watched Greg Norman hole a shot out of the rough up ahead, and waved a towel in mock surrender.

I remember that, but I thought it was just an insanely long putt, as opposed to a chip-in from the rough. Either way, Fuzzy thought it was a birdie, which is why he thought Norman had won. It was actually for a par, so they ended up tied and Fuzzy won in a playoff the next day -- one of many near-misses by Norman in major tournaments.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

In tennis it is hard to call the lines while your running to make your shot, or trying to return a serve. It wouldn't be possible to accurately call a 100+ mph serve in or out while actually trying to return the thing!

The last time baseball umpires were threatening to strike, I suggested in this forum that MLB should let the players call their own plays - catchers the balls and strikes and the base fielders out and safe. I bet they would get 98% correct and there would be little argument from the opponent - less than there is now with the umpires. At the very least, it would be an interesting experiment.

[Indoor66]

The last time baseball umpires were threatening to strike, I suggested in this forum that MLB should let the players call their own plays - catchers the balls and strikes and the base fielders out and safe. I bet they would get 98% correct and there would be little argument from the opponent - less than there is now with the umpires. At the very least, it would be an interesting experiment.

I like that. The best strategy would be to call them straight or the other side gets to retaliate. Let's give it a try - until the first killing.

[mapei]

unfortunately, baseball being baseball, "retaliation" would probably come in the form of pitchers throwing at batters. I hate that. I also hate the way the "argument with the umpire" is apparently seen as a colorful part of the game, like fighting in hockey. Yuck.