Harry Potter Book Question (SPOILER!!)

[Hector Vector]

What exactly saved Harry from being killed by Voldemort out in the forest? (my understanding is it was that Lily's blood was in Harry's blood that V used to come back to life)

Was whatever protected H from V in the forest a one time thing, or was H invulnerable to V (i.e. V couldn't have beat Harry under any circumstance)?

[Exiled_Devil]

I believe that Harry was protected from death because he was the master of all three of the deathly hallows - the explanation at the end when he is dueling voldy explains how he was the master of the wand, and he always had the cloak, and the stone was in the snitch.

Exiled

[JBDuke]

My understanding, based on Harry and Dumbledore's conversation when Harry was "dead", is that Harry essentially had two souls - his own and a piece of Voldemort's. The AK spell killed the piece of Voldemort that was in him.

[pacificrounder]

My understanding, based on Harry and Dumbledore's conversation when Harry was "dead", is that Harry essentially had two souls - his own and a piece of Voldemort's. The AK spell killed the piece of Voldemort that was in him.

This is what I remember. He couldn't have been the master of the Deathly Hallows because Voldemort still had the Elder Wand, IIRC. However, didn't Dumbledore also say that the fact that Harry let Voldemort kill him (rather than fighting back) was important?

[JBDuke]

This is what I remember. He couldn't have been the master of the Deathly Hallows because Voldemort still had the Elder Wand, IIRC. However, didn't Dumbledore also say that the fact that Harry let Voldemort kill him (rather than fighting back) was important?

You may be right - I'd have to go back and check, and don't have the book with me currently, but after all, Harry's sacrifice was another act of love...

[Hector Vector]

I think Harry's sacrifice was necessary to destroy the piece of Voldemort that was contained with Harry.

What I am still trying to puzzle out, however, was whether whatever protected Harry from dying in that encounter (which I understand to be Lily's blood residing in Voldemort) would have protected him in every subsequent encounter to the end of time. In other words, did VM's taking of HP blood in the GOF (and thereby taking in Lily's blood) render the result a fait accompli: VM could not destroy HP? Something tells me that is not the case, but I can't figure out why.

[Patrick Yates]

I am sort of having a hard time thinking that Voldy was the greatest Dark Wizard of all time. He tried several times to kill HP with a spell, and it never worked. So his strategy basically became more power.

Why didn't he just levitate a boulder or house or something and just drop it on HP's freaking head? Poison, stabbing, whatever. I mean, just buy a freaking gun.

No imagination by Voldy. He and his death eaters started to remind me of a SNL skit from the Farley era. It was a riff on the Ninja movies where a group of ninja's in a movie would attack the lone hero, and get the snot kicked out of them. The skit was basically the afteraction report where the losers tried to figure out what went wrong. As some point, the Death Eaters had to start asking themselves, "You know, maybe we can't beat this kid."

Patrick Yates

[Bostondevil]

I am sort of having a hard time thinking that Voldy was the greatest Dark Wizard of all time. He tried several times to kill HP with a spell, and it never worked. So his strategy basically became more power.

Why didn't he just levitate a boulder or house or something and just drop it on HP's freaking head? Poison, stabbing, whatever. I mean, just buy a freaking gun.

Well, Harry can use magic too, in fact, he's pretty good at it, so I doubt a boulder or a gun could be put to effective use, poison, maybe, or the best solution would have been to kill him like he killed Snape, that might have worked. Still, in the Forbidden Forest, Harry gave himself up so I imagine no matter what weapon was used he could have come back and in the FINAL final battle, Nagini was already dead. In front of all those people do you really think he could have forced Harry to drink poison?

[Jfrosh]

I saw Harry's sacrifice as two fold. First it was an act of love to protect those still in Hogwarts. That is why Voldemort was unable to kill anyone when he finally entered Hogwarts. The second allowed Voldemort to kill off the last remaining portion (after Nagani was killed) of his own soul while Harry was still protected. Harry was protected because his part of his and Lily's blood (and soul) still rested within Voldemort.

[Patrick Yates]

Well, Harry can use magic too, in fact, he's pretty good at it, so I doubt a boulder or a gun could be put to effective use, poison, maybe, or the best solution would have been to kill him like he killed Snape, that might have worked. Still, in the Forbidden Forest, Harry gave himself up so I imagine no matter what weapon was used he could have come back and in the FINAL final battle, Nagini was already dead. In front of all those people do you really think he could have forced Harry to drink poison?

I agree about the forest. In front of his supporters, Voldy had to attack HP, and, preferably in a way that the body could be displayed.

When I said the other ways he could have used, I meant prior to the battle in the forest. He could have imperiused some kid, who harry barely knows, to use a knife on HP and slit HP's throat at Hogwarts. My point was that Voldy, if he was the genuis that everyone said he was, should have cottoned on to the fact that he was having real trouble with HP when they went head to head. I would have avoided a direct fight. I would have used subterfuge and my suposedly superior knowledge of magic to beat HP some other way than a duel.

Patrick Yates

[alteran]

This is what I remember. He couldn't have been the master of the Deathly Hallows because Voldemort still had the Elder Wand, IIRC.

Okay, I blazed through TDH, so I may have missed key elements, but I think this mostly answers the "mastery" question.

Harry WAS the master of the Elder Wand, even though Voldy had it. It's tricky, because mastery is not conveyed by physical control of the wand, but by defeating it's "master." (Also remember that it is the wand that determines who the master is.)

This is why V took out Snape-- although having physical custody of the Elder Wand (EW), Voldy realized he wasn't it's master. Voldy thought Snape was the unknowing master of the Elder Wand by virtue of Snape killing Dumbledore, but Snape WAS NOT. Snape's non-mastery is attributable to two things that Voldy did not know-- 1) Dumbledore and Snape were accomplices in D's death and hence this act did not convey a "defeat" of D, but primarily 2) Draco actually DID defeat D by taking the EW by force. (He "expelliaramussed" the wand away while Dumbledore was freezing/paralyzing Harry towards the end of HBP.)

Hence, DRACO was the ACTUAL master of the Elder Wand, although only Harry knew this. And Harry became the EW's master when he defeated Draco when he took Draco's wand (not the EW) at the Malfoy house.

Clear as mud? ;-)

For what it's worth, this is not solely an alteran conspiracy, I'm pretty sure these points are made explicitly somewhere towards the end of TDH, I just can't remember where and I have already lent the book out.

Personally, I think the "mastery of the wand" thing is a little fudgy and I can think of half a dozen problems with it, but this is essentially the explanation that Rowling made for Harry being the master of the EW.


What exactly saved Harry from being killed by Voldemort out in the forest? (my understanding is it was that Lily's blood was in Harry's blood that V used to come back to life)

Was whatever protected H from V in the forest a one time thing, or was H invulnerable to V (i.e. V couldn't have beat Harry under any circumstance)?

Again, I zoomed through TDH so I may have missed something (and may be flat-out wrong,) but here's what I picked up.

Harry, in fact, has two protections: 1) some combination of his mother's spell, Voldy having Harry's blood, and Harry and Voldy's "soul-mixing" make it so that neither can truly die while the other lives, and 2) Harry has "mastery of death" by virtue of being the rightful owner of all three of the Deathly Hallows (see Harry's mastery of the Elder Wand, above.)

To directly answer your question above, Harry survives in the forest because of his linkage with Voldy by the soul mixing and Harry's mother's spell that protects him. You could argue the Hallows were the primary factor here as well. However, the manner of his survival is similar to his survival as an infant when the Hallows were not a factor, IMHO.

On the other hand, Harry dodges having to die with Voldy at the end by virtue of being the master of the Deathly Hallows.

We never really hear how or why the DH convey "mastery" over death, but there is certainly ample room to interpret this as the loophole that allowed Harry to survive.

As to your second question, I don't think anything could truly kill Harry while Voldy lived. Voldy essentially performed the same function for Harry as a Horcrux-- as long as he lived, Voldy's soul stuck in Harry would still tie Harry to life.

Boy do I feel like a geek.

[Windsor]

When I said the other ways he could have used, I meant prior to the battle in the forest. He could have imperiused some kid, who harry barely knows, to use a knife on HP and slit HP's throat at Hogwarts.Patrick Yates

Volde was aware of the prophecy which is why he personally needed to kill Harry...the death eaters were all instructed NOT to kill him. Voldemort needed to do it himself.

...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...

[bluebear]

Again, I zoomed through TDH so I may have missed something (and may be flat-out wrong,) but here's what I picked up.

Harry, in fact, has two protections: 1) some combination of his mother's spell, Voldy having Harry's blood, and Harry and Voldy's "soul-mixing" make it so that neither can truly die while the other lives, and 2) Harry has "mastery of death" by virtue of being the rightful owner of all three of the Deathly Hallows (see Harry's mastery of the Elder Wand, above.)

To directly answer your question above, Harry survives in the forest because of his linkage with Voldy by the soul mixing and Harry's mother's spell that protects him. You could argue the Hallows were the primary factor here as well. However, the manner of his survival is similar to his survival as an infant when the Hallows were not a factor, IMHO.

On the other hand, Harry dodges having to die with Voldy at the end by virtue of being the master of the Deathly Hallows.

We never really hear how or why the DH convey "mastery" over death, but there is certainly ample room to interpret this as the loophole that allowed Harry to survive.

As to your second question, I don't think anything could truly kill Harry while Voldy lived. Voldy essentially performed the same function for Harry as a Horcrux-- as long as he lived, Voldy's soul stuck in Harry would still tie Harry to life.

Boy do I feel like a geek.

Great summary..I'm not sure about the Deathly Hallows piece in the final battle though. Harry had already dropped the Resurrection Stone in the forest so I don't know if that still counts as ownership. My sense was that Harry was able to win the last fight because of the Elder Wand. Voldemort could not properly do the AK on Harry because he wasn't the wand's master..Just as he couldn't properly do the Cruciatus Curse on him in the forest. How the "faulty" curse then rebounded to kill Voldemort however seems a little unclear...

[Noteware]

"My sense was that Harry was able to win the last fight because of the Elder Wand."

That was my impression too. I understood that the EW would not damage its master, who was Harry after he disarmed Draco (who was not even using the EW!).

[Windsor]

"My sense was that Harry was able to win the last fight because of the Elder Wand."



There is a quick line in there (my daughter has the book or I would look it up) where Harry 'hopes the wand knows who its master is' or something like that. Obviously it did...smart things, those wands.

[Hector Vector]

So could Voldemort have killed Harry with another wand that Harry was not master over, or did the Lily blood coursing through Voldemort's veins protect Harry from Voldermort under any circumstance?

[Windsor]

So could Voldemort have killed Harry with another wand that Harry was not master over, or did the Lily blood coursing through Voldemort's veins protect Harry from Voldermort under any circumstance?


I don't believe that Voldemort could kill Harry because of Lily's blood. I wish I could double check the conversation Harry has with Dumbledore when he's 'dead' to see if it is clear on that point or not.

[Bostondevil]

When I said the other ways he could have used, I meant prior to the battle in the forest. He could have imperiused some kid, who harry barely knows, to use a knife on HP and slit HP's throat at Hogwarts. My point was that Voldy, if he was the genuis that everyone said he was, should have cottoned on to the fact that he was having real trouble with HP when they went head to head. I would have avoided a direct fight. I would have used subterfuge and my suposedly superior knowledge of magic to beat HP some other way than a duel.

But there's the prophecy to consider. Didn't that lead Voldemort to believe that he had to be the one to kill Potter?

Oops, somebody already made this point.

[SouthgateWindsor]

This has been the most helpful thread. Thanks to all who have explained things.

My main question is *what* is the creature/child in the King's Cross Station with Harry and Dumbledore? My guess is that it is the piece of Voldy's soul that was living in Harry and therefore "died" with him and it's waiting to be reunited with the other pieces. But I freely admit that I could be very very wrong on this. :o

Also my memory is a bit hazy on the end of Book 6. After Draco expelliarmused the Elder Wand out of Dumbledore, did he give it to Snape or drop it? I guess what I want to know is how the EW got into DD's tomb.

Thanks!

[Noteware]

Also my memory is a bit hazy on the end of Book 6. After Draco expelliarmused the Elder Wand out of Dumbledore, did he give it to Snape or drop it? I guess what I want to know is how the EW got into DD's tomb.

Thanks!

IIRC, at the end of HP6 Draco "expelliaramused" (sp?) Dumbledore's wand from him while they were at the top of the tower, and the wand fell off the tower. Draco would not kill the wandless Dumbledore, and Snape finally came running up the stairs. Snape saw what was going on and AK'd Dumbledore, who tumbled off the tower. I gathered that they found the wand and Dumbledore's corpse at the base of the tower. So, Draco disarmed Dumbledore and Snape killed him.

[Jfrosh]

This has been the most helpful thread. Thanks to all who have explained things.

My main question is *what* is the creature/child in the King's Cross Station with Harry and Dumbledore? My guess is that it is the piece of Voldy's soul that was living in Harry and therefore "died" with him and it's waiting to be reunited with the other pieces. But I freely admit that I could be very very wrong on this. :o

Also my memory is a bit hazy on the end of Book 6. After Draco expelliarmused the Elder Wand out of Dumbledore, did he give it to Snape or drop it? I guess what I want to know is how the EW got into DD's tomb.

Thanks!

#1. That was my guess as well. I couldn't think of what else it could be. I'd be interested to hear others opinions.

#2. When DD's wand was expeliarmused by Draco he just dropped it. When everyone ran after Snape Killed DD it was just left on the ground.

I don't have the book in front of me so I can't confirm, so correct me if I'm wrong, but this reminded me that Harry used his signature move (which the Deatheaters considered weak) of expelliarmus in the final battle with Voldemort. That weak spell killed the greatest dark wizard of all time. How cool is that!

[aimo]

I don't have the book in front of me so I can't confirm, so correct me if I'm wrong, but this reminded me that Harry used his signature move (which the Deatheaters considered weak) of expelliarmus in the final battle with Voldemort. That weak spell killed the greatest dark wizard of all time. How cool is that!

That did not even cross my mind! I 'm going to start my re-read in a couple of days. So much information and so many things to notice the second time around.

[Bostondevil]

As I think about it, Voldy's biggest mistake was killing Lily Evans Potter. Her sacrifice protected Harry, and by killing her he lost probably his best ally, Snape. I get the feeling that Snape was the best wizard of the Death Eating bunch. Some of those Death Eaters sure seem like the expendable henchmen of questionable intelligence you see in every Bond movie. It's kind of hard to believe he couldn't have just pushed her out of the way and then cursed baby Harry.

Also, way back in book one, Hagrid says there wasn't a witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. Pettigrew? Although I suppose at the time we didn't know he had gone bad.

[Dukerati]

My impression from having read the book was that Voldemort couldn't kill Harry because
1) His act was a selfless act of love
2) Which in turn, activated his mother's spell of protection which, too, was borne out of love

I'll have to go back and check, but that was the idea I had in my head after the book. I'm also glad you brought up the Slytherin thing Bostondevil. It really really annoyed me that the entire Slytherin group left Hogwarts. There wasn't a single good person among them? I know people will argue for Snape but he was more in love with Lily than an actually good person.

[Windsor]

I know people will argue for Snape but he was more in love with Lily than an actually good person.

Snape did what he did out of love...just like Lily and Harry. Someone capable of a selfless act of love (Snape) can't be all bad. Voldemorts great weakness was that he neither understood nor was capable of love.

[Olympic Fan]

I'm also glad you brought up the Slytherin thing Bostondevil. It really really annoyed me that the entire Slytherin group left Hogwarts. There wasn't a single good person among them? I know people will argue for Snape but he was more in love with Lily than an actually good person.

While Slytherin left as a group, Slughorn, the head of Slytherin, was one of three wizards dueling Voldemort in the Great Hall when Harry reappears for his final duel.

Also, the portrait of Phineas (sp?) Black -- the last Slytherin before Snape to be headmaster -- was on the right side all along. He was wasn't a really good guy or anything, but he helped the Order in Book 5 and 6 ... and gave the wandering information in TDH (although they didn't fully trust him).

[aimo]

Also, the portrait of Phineas (sp?) Black -- the last Slytherin before Snape to be headmaster -- was on the right side all along. He was wasn't a really good guy or anything, but he helped the Order in Book 5 and 6 ... and gave the wandering information in TDH (although they didn't fully trust him).

I believe that it was explained in OotP that it is required of the portraits to help out the current Headmaster. I guess he was following DD's then Snape's wishes. The portraits had to hear Snape discussing thing with DD's portrait. What I didn't understand was what Phineas NIGELLUS said at the end when the gang went up to the headmaster's office, "And let it be noted that Slytherin House played its part! Let our contribution not be forgotten!" Um, they were pretty much only the bad guys, except for Slughorn, right? And Snape, I guess. Weren't all of the Death Eaters pretty much Slytherin alums?

[Patrick Yates]

While Slytherin left as a group, Slughorn, the head of Slytherin, was one of three wizards dueling Voldemort in the Great Hall when Harry reappears for his final duel.

Also, the portrait of Phineas (sp?) Black -- the last Slytherin before Snape to be headmaster -- was on the right side all along. He was wasn't a really good guy or anything, but he helped the Order in Book 5 and 6 ... and gave the wandering information in TDH (although they didn't fully trust him).

It wasn't up to Phin to be good or bad. In fact, it is not up to any of the former headmasters in the pictures in the Head's office.

In OOTP we find out that the people in those pictures are duty bound to provide service to the current Headmaster of Hogwarts. If Snape had been evil, Phin would have been duty bound to tell tales re: the Trio, whether or not he wanted to.

As for the weak spell that killed voldy, it was more than luck, or cleverness on JKR's part. It illustrated the crucial difference between HP, who was good, and LV, who was evil. LV went for the kill, whereas HP went to disarm LV, which would have ended the fight, cause no wand, no magic. If wandless, a first year could take LV down. Thus, HP was trying to be merciful, even to a being that in no way, shape, or form, deserved mercy. One more example of how great a person HP is.

Patrick Yates

[alteran]

IIRC, at the end of HP6 Draco "expelliaramused" (sp?)...I think the proper spelling is "expelliaramussed" (note second "s").

Expelliaramused is the act of finding wand-disarming funny.

[Windsor]

JKR's interview (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959323/) on the today show answered quite a few questions left dangling in the epilogue.

I believe it is a two part interview (Part 2 tomorrow, Dateline over the weekend - not sure if the Dateline is a compilation of the Today shows spots or fresh stuff).

Read, enjoy, discuss

[Jfrosh]

JKR's interview (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959323/) on the today show answered quite a few questions left dangling in the epilogue.

I believe it is a two part interview (Part 2 tomorrow, Dateline over the weekend - not sure if the Dateline is a compilation of the Today shows spots or fresh stuff).

Read, enjoy, discuss

I can't believe they gave away what they did in that interview. This is exactly why I spead through the book over the weekend. They let significant things out about who lives and who dies, etc. The books been out less than a week and they are already giving away significant plot points.

[ramdevil]

I don't recall which book, but does anyone remember when Dumbledore sends a message (a howler, I think) to Petunia so that she changes her mind about Harry (I can't remember exactly the situation). I always wondered what hold he had on her... My guess from DH is that she begged to be admitted to Hogwarts. Did anyone else pick up on this?

Also, what does everyone think about Snape? Even after he killed Dumbledore, somehow I thought he was not working for LV. Then, when he "punishes" Ginny, Neville, and someone else by sending them into the forest - I was sure. That probably protected them from the DeathEater teachers...

Ramdevil.

[Patrick Yates]

It was OOTP when Dumbledore sent the howler. Vernon had kicked HP out after the dementor attacked, when Petunia realized that Voldy was back. Vernon realized how dangerous having HP arround was, and that prompted him to kick out HP.

DD sent the howler to remind Petunia that by giving HP homestead, she had sealed the magic that protected HP. (As a lawyer, I did wonder why the protection did not end the moment Vernon kicked HP out, but I digress)

1 of 2 things is possible here.

1. Petunia kept HP to protect her sister's child because she did love her sister at the end of the day.
or
2. Petunia realized that the magic also protected her family, as well as HP. Like in Deathly Hallows, without that protection her family is a target as well.

It had noting to do with a letter sent in childhood. That could not be held against anyone. DD simply remided her that she promised to take in, and thus protect, HP. As a side not, would you want to cross DD? I wouldn't, and I think this occurred to Petunia.

Patrick Yates

[BluDevilGal]

Okay so in trying to get my head around why Harry didn't die in the forest this is what I came up with:

-Harry and Voldemort are very closely linked at this point- part of Voldy's soul in Harry, Harry's blood in Voldy
-Harry's blood gives them both a special protection
-because of this and probably partially also because of Harry's willing sacrifice of himself, the AK curse does not work as it should
-instead he is hit with a curse powerful enough to rip Voldy's soul from his own, but which does not kill him
-the curse also seems to have rebounded like it did when Voldy tried to kill Harry as a baby, but this time Voldy had the protection of Harry's blood so he was merely knocked out instead of torn from his body

Um, hopefully that makes sense. I don't know if it's right or not, but that's what I came up with.

And like people were talking about above, Harry's mastery over the Hallows might also have contributed to it too, but I don't think they are necessary to explain it.

[Exiled_Devil]

I agree about the forest. In front of his supporters, Voldy had to attack HP, and, preferably in a way that the body could be displayed.

When I said the other ways he could have used, I meant prior to the battle in the forest. He could have imperiused some kid, who harry barely knows, to use a knife on HP and slit HP's throat at Hogwarts. My point was that Voldy, if he was the genuis that everyone said he was, should have cottoned on to the fact that he was having real trouble with HP when they went head to head. I would have avoided a direct fight. I would have used subterfuge and my suposedly superior knowledge of magic to beat HP some other way than a duel.

Patrick Yates

Besides the prophecy, you have to figure in the "James Bond villain" syndrome. --Any real villain must meet the hero face to face, explain in great detail his plans for the hero's death and exactly how he will take over the world after the death.

Voldemort was just doing his job. :D


Exiled