In defense of Barry Bonds

[dkbaseball]

Sorry, but I've had a rant coming on for a long time and this is the occasion for its ventilation.Tocqueville noticed 177 years ago that Americans are always seeking of perch of superiority from which they can look down upon their neighbors. Nowadays it seems as if our public discourse consists of nothing else but these little moral positioning strategems. Certainly it's 100 percent of talk radio, sports and otherwise, and it's become extremely tiresome.

And it often involves trying to bring down someone who has reached great heights, such as Bonds. Yes, he can be a jerk, and I certainly wouldn't want to be a Giants beat writer and have to cover him. Yes, there's a decent chance he used steroids during a time when probably the majority of major league players were juiced. But let's keep this in perspective.

All steroids do is allow you to work out longer in the weight room, if you're so inclined. Bonds is so inclined. For years he has been on a grueling workout regimen taking about six-eight hours a day. The guy works like a plow horse to become a great player, and he is reaping the benefits of combining hard work with great natural ability. My gosh, he's the most feared hitter in the game, with the best OPS, and he's going to turn 43 next month. Do you have any idea what a staggering achievement that is? The sainted Babe Ruth was long since put out to pasture at 43, after years of boozing, gluttony and chasing women.

Bonds is one of the greatest players ever to suit up. His swing is poetry. As Dice-K (not yet versed in the American custom of superior moral positioning) put it the other day: Bonds has an aura about him. We should be enjoying the windup to his career, and trying to learn some things from him about how to continue performing at a high level when most everyone else has packed it in.

And just to put the steroids business in a bit of historical perspective: They've been around for a long time, and were even used by track athletes at Duke in the early '70s to give them a stronger finishing kick.

[EarlJam]

In short, I agree. Good post. The dude's hand/eye coordination is incredible and no matter how big you are, it still takes immense talent to acheive what he's achieved.

The shocking thing is that many baseball writers have said they would not vote him into the hall of fame. Can you imagine that? A baseball hall of fame that exludes the sports all-time hits leader (Rose) AND all-time home runs leader (Bonds)? That just wouldn't be right at all.

-EarlJam - Who is not a big fan of Bonds but give the guy his due.

P.S. Not that Barry could ever do this, but do "inside the park home runs" count as official home runs? I guess they do, but I'm not positive.

[allenmurray]

Sorry, but I've had a rant coming on for a long time and this is the occasion for its ventilation.Tocqueville noticed 177 years ago that Americans are always seeking of perch of superiority from which they can look down upon their neighbors. Nowadays it seems as if our public discourse consists of nothing else but these little moral positioning strategems. Certainly it's 100 percent of talk radio, sports and otherwise, and it's become extremely tiresome.

And it often involves trying to bring down someone who has reached great heights, such as Bonds. Yes, he can be a jerk, and I certainly wouldn't want to be a Giants beat writer and have to cover him. Yes, there's a decent chance he used steroids during a time when probably the majority of major league players were juiced. But let's keep this in perspective.

All steroids do is allow you to work out longer in the weight room, if you're so inclined. Bonds is so inclined. For years he has been on a grueling workout regimen taking about six-eight hours a day. The guy works like a plow horse to become a great player, and he is reaping the benefits of combining hard work with great natural ability. My gosh, he's the most feared hitter in the game, with the best OPS, and he's going to turn 43 next month. Do you have any idea what a staggering achievement that is? The sainted Babe Ruth was long since put out to pasture at 43, after years of boozing, gluttony and chasing women.

Bonds is one of the greatest players ever to suit up. His swing is poetry. As Dice-K (not yet versed in the American custom of superior moral positioning) put it the other day: Bonds has an aura about him. We should be enjoying the windup to his career, and trying to learn some things from him about how to continue performing at a high level when most everyone else has packed it in.



Feel free to enjoy his career if you choose. I'll feel free to continue to think he is a jerk and a cheater. The fact that other people also cheated does not make his less wrong.

You say, "All steroids do is allow you to work out longer in the weight room, if you're so inclined." Didn't you mean to say "All steroids do is allow you to work out longer in the weight room than you would have been able to if you had not been using steroids, if you're so inclined"? I think you forgot the italicized part of the sentence.

As for the comparison to Ruth. Well, lets see, if Ruth got his 714 while drinking and chasing women, and not using steroids, just think what he would have done had he cheated like Bonds. We probably wouldn't even be talking about a record chase. If anything, it makes your argument weaker. Bonds was able to do what Ruth and Aaron did only by cheating. That is why he is still performing at 43 and they were not. That is why his record is tainted.

And moving on to Aaron - when Bonds has done 10% as much for baseball as Aaron has done, 10% as much for sports in general, 10% as much for civil rights and the push toward true inclusion of all in sports, then I might be willing to lok his way for just a second. But Bonds, even with his size 13 feet*, will never fill the shoes of Hank Aaron, either as a baseball player or a man. (Aaron was 2 inches shorter and 50 lbs lighter - but stands much, much taller than bonds. )

Aaron grew up in poverty. Bonds grew up in luxury. Aaron was spit at and threatened with death because he was a African-American man chasing a white man's record. Bond's is trying to break the record of an African-American man. He isn't being held in poor regard out of racial animosity - he is disliked because he is a jerk; making a run on a record set by a gentleman.

If I need a power hitter to look up to it will be Hank Aaron, not Barry Bonds. There are things more important than how many home runs someone hits.

* It is very, very rare for anyone's feet to grow in length post-puberty. Bonds went from a size 10.5 to a size 13 as an adult. One of the only medical explanations for this is HGH.

[Bostondevil]

Absolutely inside the parkers count, they're still home runs.

[Dukerati]

Steroids allowed Bonds to work out longer and harder than what is normally possible. There are countless baseball players (in the majors and minors) who work out religiously hoping to gain that extra edge needed in the highest levels of competitions. It is not fair to the people who didn't succumb to something illegal to do so.

Sure, a lot of people cheated. That is not a reason to forgive Bonds. It's not like people love Raphael Palmerio and Sammy Sosa. Do they inspire the same level of dislike that Bonds does? Nope, but that can be partly attributed to the fact that they are not a**holes like Bonds is.

Bonds was already one of the greatest of all time without the performance enhancers. He could have arguably gone after the record without the stuff he took. The fact that he felt the need to so indicates a level of selfishness that is unsettling. It also appears the steroids has helped A LOT in the HR category. Look at all the alleged steroids users. Sosa, Palmerio, Bonds, Giambi... they were all never the same. It's hard to take the records seriously with such a big dropoff in production. If even one person admitted to taking steroids and had his numbers IMPROVE after he stopped, maybe the skepticism would abate to some degree. Regardless, I don't think anyone is arguing that Bonds isn't great. He was and still is undeniably so. They just don't like the guy and don't want to see him breaking records when his pursuit of them appear to be so clearly tainted.

[hurleyfor3]

I hope he breaks it. Preferably in the middle of the third week of July.

[feldspar]

Feel free to call him a cheater if you will, but I still haven't seen a smoking gun.

Until I do, my hat goes off to him for all he's accomplished in his career.

[Gordon Shumway]

First, I believe that if Bonds played in Ruth's time he could hit over 100 HR's and Ruth would struggle to hit 30 if he played today.

I suppose I'm more of a baseball than a basketball nut and I find the Bonds hate to be quite amusing. Here's a guy who's by the far the most hated figure in sports although he really hasn't been that bad compared to many other athletes such as Latrell Sprewell, Pacman Jones, Ron Artest, Daryl Strawberry, Bill Romanowski, and the like. His detractors say he's a cheater and an a-hole, but so can be said for many other guys. His supporters point to his race but there are many loud, obnoxious African-Americans who never generate anywhere near the same hate.

My theory is that his brand of douchbaggery is more understandable to what most of have experienced in our sheltered, middle-class lives. Guys like Sprewell and Jones above seem like distant cartoon villains: when they cross the line it's in ways that we have never really experienced in school or work. We know many guys like Bonds in our lives: the guys who cheat in school and get A's or take credit for other people's work on the job.

Likewise, most athletes come from poor/working-class backgrounds: we'll wave off their behavior with our middle-class noblesse oblige. Their "other-ness" makes it harder to identify with them. Bonds has no such fallback. He's the product of the same private schools and gated communities that most Duke students were fortunate to be a part of.

Ultimately, Bonds generates hate in the same way that Christian Laettner and JJ Redick do. We don't hate him because he's so much worse than everyone else but because his form of obnoxiousness is so common and familiar to what we know. We hate him because he's so like the spoiled preppie, the loudmouth jock, or annoying co-worker we're all familiar with.

[hc5duke]

Feel free to call him a cheater if you will, but I still haven't seen a smoking gun.

Until I do, my hat goes off to him for all he's accomplished in his career.

Just out of curiosity, what would be considered a "smoking gun"? Admission from Bonds? Receipts? Syringe found in his trash?

[alteran]

Feel free to call him a cheater if you will, but I still haven't seen a smoking gun.

Until I do, my hat goes off to him for all he's accomplished in his career.

How do you define smoking gun?

Bonds admits to receiving a clear substance and a cream (http://www.news10.net/display_story.aspx?storyid=8686) from Greg Anderson, a person well-known primarily for distributing steroids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Anderson_(trainer)). The slang for the two most common steroids in baseball are "The Clear" and "The Cream." Funny that.

Bonds claims he thought they were something else-- although he found a pretty shady person to receive what he thought were legitimate substances from.

Anderson has spent a lot of time in jail for refusing to answer whether or not Bonds received the steroids knowingly. (And thereby prove that Bonds committed perjury.)

IMHO, it seems pretty obvious what happened, the only thing in doubt is whether or not it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

[allenmurray]

my hat goes off to him for all he's accomplished in his career.

Barry would like to take his hat off too, but it is really, really tight and he might not be able to get it back on again. Despite shaving his head, his hat size is now three sizes larger than it was 10 years ago. There are very few causes of crainail growth in adults.

[EarlJam]

douchbaggery?

Awesome.

-EarlJam

[feldspar]

Barry would like to take his hat off too, but it is really, really tight and he might not be able to get it back on again. Despite shaving his head, his hat size is now three sizes larger than it was 10 years ago. There are very few causes of crainail growth in adults.

Is this one of the many folk legends I've heard about Barry or do you have something with which to back this up?

[rthomas]

His head doesn't look that big to me.




http://www.dccomics.com/media/covers/6365_450x600.jpg

[dbb03]

Is this one of the many folk legends I've heard about Barry or do you have something with which to back this up?

this is from the book Game of Shadows by the SF Chronicle reporters - not saying it's fact or has been proven, just putting it out there.

Equally startling are these numbers: According to Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, the San Francisco Chronicle reporters who wrote "Game of Shadows: Barry Bonds, BALCO, and the Steroids Scandal That Rocked Professional Sports," Mike Murphy, equipment manager of the San Francisco Giants, testified that since Bonds became a Giant in 1993, the size of his uniform jersey has gone from 42 to 52. His cap size has expanded from 7 1/8 to 7 1/4, even though while it was expanding he shaved his head. (Bonds reportedly shaved his head because his hair was falling out as a result of steroid use.) And Fainaru-Wada and Williams also say Murphy testified that Bonds's baseball shoe size has changed from 10½ to 13.

more here - http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/03/06/growth0313/?cnn=yes

i think people hate him for a variety (and combination) of reasons - race, cheating, arrogance, wife abuser, tax evader, bully, etc. But mostly b/c overall, he comes off as such an a**.

[alteran]

Is this one of the many folk legends I've heard about Barry or do you have something with which to back this up?

I thought AllenM was making a riff on his earlier comment about Barry's foot inexplicably growing in later life.

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660200642,00.html

It appears both claims are materially true. Ah, Google-Fu. I found this using the search string, "barry bonds foot size."

Do I detect a waft of gunsmoke? ;-)

--alteran

[feldspar]

Well, I'll have to read the book, I guess. But, at first glance, I'm not really inclined to believe reporters who will break the law in order to get a book published.

[EarlJam]

I thought AllenM was making a riff on his earlier comment about Barry's foot inexplicably growing in later life.

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660200642,00.html

It appears both claims are materially true. Ah, Google-Fu. I found this using the search string, "barry bonds foot size."

Do I detect a waft of gunsmoke? ;-)

--alteran

Increased foot size, increased cranium size, increased torso size. If only it worked to incr....nevermind. I think you all know where I'm going here. :o If only it worked that way. There would much more steroid use out there.

-EarlJam

[greybeard]

I do not think stars in sports take steriods to get better. Well, there are exceptions, like Lyle Alzaito. In the main, I believe that they take steroids because they love the games they have played all their lives and find their bodies failing them. We all have the aches and pains that keep us from gettin it done any longer, the knee or ankle with chips in it, that allows us to get a run in one day and light it up and keeps us grounded for a couple of weeks after that, lest we go on the court as "old men" and prove all the youngsters right.

Anybody with me here, or are you all too young to viscerally relate? Use your imaginations then.

Now, suppose that you a gym rat who every lunch hour goes to the downtown Y or wherever, as you have since your mid 20s when you entered the real world, and played, neigh starred, in the lunchtime game. And, then that knee prevented you from even really being able to play, even if you just hung on the outside, passed, cleared space, set a screen once in a while, and once in a real while surprised the world including yourself and could score the ball. Nope. Even that was off limits because you play once and limp for a week or so, or, if you don't limp, you feel it with every step.

So, everybody with me, suppose somebody came along with some cream that would let you play, and I mean really play again. Maybe you decide that it is best to give up on the "Taking It To the Rim" game (I think that that is the title of a book written by a New York Times Sports Reporter about the lure of the great game even for the maimed), and become the exclusive outside shooter that you had always eschewed. But, you could actually play and get chosen on teams and hold the court. You could do what you loved. You go for it right? (the one guy who says no takes Rogain for hsi hair and Viagra for his . . . .) Of course right.

Now, Bonds and McGuire, in particular, seem to fit the model that I just described to a tee. Both were prematurally done with the game because their bodies had failed them. Both found new life, an ability to continue to do that which had captured their imaginations and souls since they were kids, in a cream or a pill. Can you really condemn them for going for it.

Records are for the fans. Players with a gift play the game because it makes them whole; the records are a byproduct, I believe.

So, where do I come out. I think that Roger has it about right. Who says that you need to play 162 plus games? How can you imagine that that will not be destructive of body, mind, and spirit of those who try to get it done. That, in the process, it becomes all and only about entertainment, not about real competition, not about athletes who are permitted the rest and space to perform to their potential. In this context, talking about records being real or not seems, I don't know any other way to put it, too surreal for words.

[EarlJam]

...for anyone interested in the Barry Bonds saga:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/48895

Lead from the article:

SAN FRANCISCO— Commissioner Bud Selig announced Wednesday that, once the Giants slugger retires, his name in the official MLB record books will be forever accompanied by an asterisk, followed by a pound sign and exclamation point, all preceded by the letter 'F'—a string of characters that, according to Selig, "will always be associated with Barry Bonds."

[dkbaseball]

Greybeard, speaking as someone who limps for a week after playing handball because of an arthritic knee but can't bring myself to quit because it's what I do and who I am, I hear you loud and clear. I just can't get too upset about someone doing whatever is necessary to either stay in the game or play better. I would never mess with steroids, but if Barry is getting great results with HGH, frankly I want to know more, because its deleterious side effects have not been demonstrated at this point.

Though Barry's use of these supplements has not been conclusively proven, I started the thread more or less stipulating it. I'm just asking people to put it in perspective. What is being called cheating is a great athlete doing whatever he can to maximize his performance. Has any great athlete ever worked harder than Barry? His workouts are legendary -- not just weights, but wind sprints and other tortures. Gary Sheffield bailed after a week or so of training with him. I'm pretty sure that Barry has had in his employ at one time or another four different personal trainers, one each for strength, stretching, running and nutrition. That's a lot of money that could be going to partying, and it's a lot of hard, physical work.

I was comparing Barry to Babe Ruth as a role model, not as a talent. Tell me truthfully, which is a worse example for young athletes -- boozing, gluttony and womanizing, showing complete disrespect for your body and health, or taking steroids in an effort to become a better player? And don't think Ruth's example didn't have plenty of influence. I tell you true that the routine for large numbers of athletes before the big money came into sports was hard partying all the time. As a friend of mine put it: "A win doesn't count unless you're hung over."

I miss those days when athletes would drink with reporters, and the whole thing was more like play. The days before athletes wirthdrew from society into their gated mansion communities and video games. But I can't defend the partying as a way of life. Barry is a product of disagreeable, narcissistic times, but he is a great, great athlete who works extremely hard to be great. I love watching him hit and watching him swagger, and I'm going to enjoy the last few months of it.

[hc5duke]

Tell me truthfully, which is a worse example for young athletes -- boozing, gluttony and womanizing, showing complete disrespect for your body and health, or taking steroids in an effort to become a better player?

How are these two things different again?

[rthomas]

uh...one makes you a better athlete (steroids), one makes you a not so good athlete (booze and women).

"Remember, women weaken knees" - Mickey from the original Rocky Movie

Barry Bonds: "Doctors ought to quit worrying about what ballplayers are taking. What players take doesn't matter. It's nobody else's business. The doctors should spend their time looking for cures for cancer. It takes more than muscles to hit homers. If all those guys were using stuff, how come they're not all hitting homers?"
Source: Associated Press, May 21, 2002

[allenmurray]

uh...one makes you a better athlete (steroids), one makes you a not so good athlete (booze and women).

Source: Associated Press, May 21, 2002

Except that one is a legal substance that might have a negative impact on performance and the other is a prescription medication that can have very serious medical consequences and is not to be posessed without a prescription from a doctor. Forget all the talk about whether or not it was agaisnt MLB rules, it has always been illegal to posess/use prescription medications without them being prescriberd by a medical professonal and having thier use supervised.

[allenmurray]

The comparisons to Ruth are disingenuous. Who is a better role model for children . . . drinking, gambling, woman chasing . . . etc.

Bonds is chasing a record held by Aaron. If you want to compare Bonds to somene, and look at character issues, do the accurate comparison.

[dkbaseball]

If you want to compare Bonds to somene, and look at character issues, do the accurate comparison.

My original point is I don't want to look at character issues. I consider it a cheap thrill to look down in superiority upon anyone, let alone someone I don't know. I say, take these great athletes for what they bring, and give the moral dudgeon a rest. Bonds is being flayed for "cheating the game" by people (not directed at anyone in particular) who haven't worked out as much in their lives as he has in a day, and it's an unseemly spectacle.

[allenmurray]

My original point is I don't want to look at character issues. I consider it a cheap thrill to look down in superiority upon anyone, let alone someone I don't know. I say, take these great athletes for what they bring, and give the moral dudgeon a rest. Bonds is being flayed for "cheating the game" by people (not directed at anyone in particular) who haven't worked out as much in their lives as he has in a day, and it's an unseemly spectacle.

Perhaps you didn't want to look at characther issues, but you did, in both your posts. Then you took the easy way out by comparing him to Ruth instead of Aaron. You can't have it both ways.

[dkbaseball]

Perhaps you didn't want to look at characther issues, but you did, in both your posts. Then you took the easy way out by comparing him to Ruth instead of Aaron. You can't have it both ways.

Oh, I thought I was disparaging the disposition to look down in moral superiority upon someone else -- i.e., analyzing another person's character --something Tocqueville saw as a common strategem of status positioning in a society where social status is seen as always up for grabs. Let me be clear: I don't know Barry Bonds, Babe Ruth or Henry Aaron, and I have no thoughts at all on their characters. It's quite enough to worry about my own. You can talk about the influence the behavior of renowned athletes might have on their public, but that is not the same thing as passing judgment on their characters.

This sort of Manichean thinking -- e.g., Aaron = good, Bonds = bad -- is not only tiresome, it props up things like the Bush presidency, visions of the rapture and other public lunacies.

[Duvall]

This sort of Manichean thinking -- e.g., Aaron = good, Bonds = bad -- is not only tiresome, it props up things like the Bush presidency, visions of the rapture and other public lunacies.

On the other hand, it allows you to recognize that Barry Bonds is a douchebag.

[Dukerati]

Well, I'll have to read the book, I guess. But, at first glance, I'm not really inclined to believe reporters who will break the law in order to get a book published.

Broke the law feldspar? Are you referring to the fact that they refused to give up their sources and were willing to go to jail for it? If not, could you please clarify?

If the reporters broke the law in order to get a book published, I would think that denotes a level of passion and conviction by the reporters in the story they are trying to tell. I would be inclined to believe it more. Having read "The Game of Shadows", I do believe it and I have not seen a single good refutation about it. Again, I do not think the question is whether or not Bonds took steroids (he took them), it's how do we view his accomplishments given the steroids context?

[allenmurray]

Oh, I thought I was disparaging the disposition to look down in moral superiority upon someone else

Oh, is that what you were doing when you said,

"The sainted Babe Ruth was long since put out to pasture at 43, after years of boozing, gluttony and chasing women. "

and when you said

"Tell me truthfully, which is a worse example for young athletes -- boozing, gluttony and womanizing, showing complete disrespect for your body and health, or taking steroids in an effort to become a better player? " My bad.

You made moral comparisons, and you compared Bonds to someone who you knew would look equally bad in the light of history. Sure, you mentioned Tocqueville's observations on American's looking down with moral superiority, but then you did the same thing with your statements about Ruth. You began this thread, and you betgan it by comparing Bonds' foibles to those of Ruth - an easy and conveneint comparison to suit your purposes. I simply noted that Bonds is not chasing Ruth's record, he is chasing Aaron's. But you didn't make comparisons to Aaron. Why not?

[Dukerati]

dkbaseball, what is wrong with wanting purity in sports? in life? You stated in an earlier post that "what is being called cheating is a great athlete doing whatever he can to maximize his performance." Essentially, you are excusing his cheating because you admire his greatness and his naked desire to be the best.

Athletes try to maximize their performance all the time. We, as a culture, celebrate that. Many, many athletes have had ridiculous work ethics. Every year, there are multiple stories that appear about how so-and-so had ridiculous offseason workouts, etc. However, those stories tell a tale of working out within the rules and regulations set forth by that sport. That lies at the heart of any sports record. Think about track and field. Was Ben Johnson a great champion? No, he was villified for cheating. But Carl Lewis and Jesse Owens are still known as great champions because they steered clear of any negative taint.

Bonds cheated. People are allowed to dislike him for that. It speaks to his character. To draw a real life parallel, how about someone who cheats on an exam and got a perfect score on the MCAT, GMAT, whatever and became the #1 student in his class. Should that person be celebrated for his drive and creativity to be the best?

Sure, Bonds is probably not getting the credit he deserves because people are focusing solely on his cheating but again, he brought that upon himself. He didn't need to cheat. He was already great. But he got greedy and got caught.

[feldspar]

Broke the law feldspar? Are you referring to the fact that they refused to give up their sources and were willing to go to jail for it? If not, could you please clarify?



It was my understanding that they included sealed grand jury documents, or facts contained therein, in their book.

[feldspar]

Bonds cheated.

Once again, if you have substantial proof of this, I'd be all ears. Or, you could go the allenmurray route and just throw out baseless and unsubstantiated accusations.

Afterall, that seems to be the norm surrounding this whole ordeal anyway.

[johnb]

Bonds is a great baseball player, and would likely have been a great--though retired--baseball player if he had not taken steroids. My dim view of him stems not from his being a narcissistic #%*@% but rather that he used performance-enhancing drugs. Admittedly, there is no absolute proof (yet), but every bit of the circumstantial evidence points towards his having set records based on cheating. And that is why Aaron may not attend the game when Bonds breaks the record (a decision that is not likely to be based on racism but rather than on what Aaron knows to be true).

[hurleyfor3]

[Bonds] was already great. But he got greedy and got caught.

He hasn't gotten caught, not yet at least.

[allenmurray]

what is wrong with wanting purity in sports? in life? .

This is America - being perceived as the best, holding the record, having folks say you are the greatest - all of these things are far more important than purity.

[feldspar]

This is America - being perceived as the best, holding the record, having folks say you are the greatest - all of these things are far more important than purity.

Naw, purity is a myth. No one is perfect, and the pursuit of perfection is an exercise in futility.

We all have our faults and foibles, even you, allenmurray. Be glad that yours aren't paraded in front of the media and the whole country for everyone to see.

[hc5duke]

Be glad that yours aren't paraded in front of the media and the whole country for everyone to see.

A lot of people (including myself) wouldn't mind doing that for an 8-figure salary...

[Dukerati]

It was my understanding that they included sealed grand jury documents, or facts contained therein, in their book.

The grand jury documents were leaked which was against the law. The reporters were not responsible for that leak and merely reported on what was leaked. Their legal troubles were not for referencing the grand jury documents but rather, refusing to give up the person who leaked the documents to them. This is how I understood the situation, and if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me:)


Once again, if you have substantial proof of this, I'd be all ears. Or, you could go the allenmurray route and just throw out baseless and unsubstantiated accusations.

Afterall, that seems to be the norm surrounding this whole ordeal anyway.

Actually Feldspar, it appears that I know a lot more about this issue than you do. I have read their book and considered the evidence, some of which has been posted on this board actually. Since you have not yet refuted any of the evidence or provided plausible and rational explanations to the contrary, I guess I did not feel the need to substantiate my accusations further. I think you believe the environment of baseless and unsubstantiated accusations is the norm because you have not taken the time to judge the case for and against Bonds. This board is full of very informed people and *if you took a poll, I bet the vast majority of them would believe Bonds is guilty*.


He hasn't gotten caught, not yet at least.

You are right. My bad. He HAS been caught in the court of public opinion though...

[alteran]

It was my understanding that they included sealed grand jury documents, or facts contained therein, in their book.

Do you have a smoking gun? ;-)

[alteran]

Once again, if you have substantial proof of this, I'd be all ears. Or, you could go the allenmurray route and just throw out baseless and unsubstantiated accusations.

Afterall, that seems to be the norm surrounding this whole ordeal anyway.

First, when your case requires you to make ad hominem attacks, it makes it look like you can't make your case with facts.

Second, there's plenty of sourced facts in this thread, you just keep ignoring them. Or rather, dismissing them with, well, unsourced and sometimes cryptic assertions. In fact, I can't find one fact in your posts refuting sourced allegations-- just assertions that they're untrustworthy, and some of these are based on the most irrelevant criteria.

All this despite your proclivity to demand facts AND sources from those on the other side of the debate.

My head spins.