The Rewards and Frustrations of Education

[Lord Ash]

Okay, gotta start by saying that most parents are great. I have had the great pleasure of having some fantastic parents in the past, who appreciate the education their kids get, who frequently thank me for being their kids' teacher even years and years later, and who talk about how much their kid loves having me as a teacher and how much (and in how many ways) I influenced their lives and had a lasting impact on them. My district passed their budget, thank god, despite the idiot governor of NJ trying to get everyone to vote down their budgets (nothing helps property values and the future of the state like making sure your public education system crumbles) and I am so glad my town supports education.

Having said that...

Holy crap. Some parents are such morons.

I have one... the boy is now in sixth grade. He has been a mess since he was in kindergarten... a MESS. Mute for years, couldn't do any of the work... and every time the teachers try to do something, the family goes crazy. The mother has sued the school twice when we tried to get him classified as special ed (I would think that not talking for six years, not hearing a single instruction, not being able to do any of the work, and literally having NO emotional reaction to anything might be a clue...) and cost us a TON of money, money the school simply cannot afford. Every year teachers gathered material to try to get the kid help, tried to show that the kid desperately needed more support, but every year the parents fought us.

This year we spent months and months on it, as the boy failed EVERY subject and literally could not do ANYTHING... trying desperately to get this kid tested to see what is wrong, to get this kid officially recognized as having a problem so he can have some help come middle school, and again, the parents refused to sign anything or get this kid help. Now, this kid is DEAD in the middle school with no paperwork... he won't get any sort of kiddie glove treatment, no special services, nothing... the first day he won't do anything and the teachers will just bomb him. We've warned the parents OVER AND OVER about this, and they just don't give a crap... they insist there is nothing wrong.

And on top of that, they constantly harass the teachers about creating special modified assignments and study guides and private lessons and all this other crap for the kid. NO!! You idiot, if you FIGHT us EVERY STEP OF THE WAY when we try to have THIS EXACT STUFF put into the kids educational program, why on EARTH would we then go ahead and do it for you anyway off the books? Do they REALLY think they are going to get this stuff in middle school and high school, that teachers will do all the WORK for special education but not actually classify the kid? How on EARTH does that help anyone?

Just moronic.

My wife (who is an elementary school counselor) had a good one too... there is a fourth grader in her school who is, frankly, a sociopath. Violent, abusive... has hurt a number of kids... suspected of killing two cats in the neighborhood... defecated on the bathroom floor (although they cannot prove it, three different times he has come into the office with this smirk and reported "Someone made a mess on the floor." Yeah, three times you happen to find it?) And he has NO empathy... no remorse... a totally flat affect. The classic "Holy cow you are going to be a serial killer."

And what do the idiot parents do? Nothing. Well, no, they fight the school NONSTOP, sue the school for trying to get the kid help, scream and curse at the principal when the kid is removed for the school bus for punching a second grade girl in the face "because he didn't like her voice." You idiot parents... YOUR KID IS REALLY DISTURBED AND NEEDS HELP, and because you are too into your own careers and pretending everything is fine, you are hurting him even more.

It is insane how many crappy parents there are. The kid who is failing everything, and then cuts school constantly (he plays sick) and mom lets him stay home... only to have him skateboard past the classroom window an hour after school starts. And then they have the gall to call up and ask that we give up our lunch to give him extra help? Are you kidding?

Or how about the kid who cusses in class, who pushes kids on the playground, who talks back and draws dirty pictures on the bathroom wall? Mom walks into the Parent-Teacher conference, the teacher says "We have grave concerns about his behavior" and mom says "Oh, it isn't grades? So what?" and WALKS OUT.

Or how about the kid who doesn't show up for school, and no parent calls, and when the school calls home at 9:30 panicked that the kid is not there and we don't know why the mom, being awoken by the phone, says that she thought it was a snow day because there were a few snowflakes that fell the night before. IT IS SUNNY AND 50 DEGREES OUTSIDE, not a FLAKE of snow in sight, and NO phone call about a snow day... and you thought it was a snow day? And do they bring the kid in from four blocks away? Nope. And this is a C-D student who needs all the time in school he can get!

Or how about the CLEARLY autistic fifth grade girl, who literally stands in one place and stares at the wall and drools, who takes THIRTY MINUTES to unpack her backpack, and who cannot do one single thing in the classroom? Nope! Nothing wrong there! Mom won't even HEAR the word autistic, and won't let the school do anything about it... in fact, she FORCED her out of special education for the one subject she got it and into the regular classroom, where she is failing everything. Come sixth grade, she is dead, and the middle school? Phew, forget it.

Oh, and forget giving them modified assignments... well, that isn't true, the parents ALL want modified assignments, but you CAN'T put that on a report card, or they can sue us (as they have in the past.) Yep... the A that the kid who drools on himself gets for putting his name on his paper is the same as the A that the honors kid gets as far as report cards go, because if we say ANYTHING otherwise, we get sued.

Or how about the kid who plays touch football at recess, gets pushed over a bit too hard (not hard enough to go to the nurse, not hard enough to even tell the adults who were on duty) and the parents SUE THE SCHOOL. Yeah, because the school isn't already strapped enough for money... getting caught up in some moronic lawsuit is TOTALLY the way to go.

Oh, and in that case? The other family SUED THE SCHOOL also. Yep, because a voted-down budget isn't enough to deal with.

It happens constantly. F'ing constantly. I have so many hundreds and hundreds of stories... I hate people sometimes, and I am often reminded that the most idiotic people that I hate are often also idiotic parents.

[DukieInKansas]

Please hang in there. The world needs more teachers like you.

It is unfortunate that parents can't remember to put their kids first. A child in special ed is no reflection on the parent. Rather, it shows that the parent cares about their kid and getting the best for them.

And the kid that stays home "sick" but still gets to play outside, I really don't get. That is my sign that I'm old. If we stayed home sick, even if we were better by the end of the day, we didn't get to play with our friends when they got home. We tried very hard not to be sick on a Friday because then you didn't get to go out to play until you returned to school on Monday.

Personally, I'd like judges to be given the right to start laughing out loud when some cases come before them. You can really find some ridiculously asinine lawsuits out there.

[InSpades]

My district passed their budget, thank god, despite the idiot governor of NJ trying to get everyone to vote down their budgets (nothing helps property values and the future of the state like making sure your public education system crumbles) and I am so glad my town supports education.


*biting tongue*

Just a few facts:
The average NJ resident spends just north of $3,000 per year in local taxes, the 5th most in the country (as of 2007-2008, courtesy Forbes.com).

On average NJ spends slightly more than $15,000 per student to educate K-12 (pretty sure that ranks top 5 as well, # courtesy of NJ DoE).

To say that the public education system will crumble due to what amounts to a 5% cut in education spending at most (less since much of it will be made up w/ increased property taxes) is extreme to say the least.

No doubt there are a bunch of parents who never should have had offspring but to say that NJ or it's Governor doesn't care about education is misleading. NJ is a very messed up state and it needs a lot of fixing.

[Deslok]

Well, if you want to look on the bright side... you made my concerns seem rather insignificant.

Teaching math in Asia, I just get to deal with the parents who wonder why they kid is doing so badly, because he only has a 95 average. Of course, my current source of frustration is the IB program. I teach IB Computer Science as well as Mathematics. And in their curriculum review, they decided to recommend out of the 150 hours or so of recommended class time, the time that needs to be allotted for teaching programming... 11 hours. So by fiat, one of my courses is about to become, well, useless.

On the plus side, as if I needed any more reason to bask in the glow of a championship, among the colleges that came to visit Seoul last week... Duke.

But anyway, yes, parents can be morons and I'm sorry you are dealing with such hassles. Hoping and praying that it will sort itself out for the best.

[Deslok]

*biting tongue*

Just a few facts:
The average NJ resident spends just north of $3,000 per year in local taxes, the 5th most in the country (as of 2007-2008, courtesy Forbes.com).

On average NJ spends slightly more than $15,000 per student to educate K-12 (pretty sure that ranks top 5 as well, # courtesy of NJ DoE).

To say that the public education system will crumble due to what amounts to a 5% cut in education spending at most (less since much of it will be made up w/ increased property taxes) is extreme to say the least.

No doubt there are a bunch of parents who never should have had offspring but to say that NJ or it's Governor doesn't care about education is misleading. NJ is a very messed up state and it needs a lot of fixing.

Not trying to make this too political or anything, but as I understand it, the state changes that are causing the uproar is not the cut in overall expenditures, but rather the severe cut that the middle class and wealthier districts are getting in funding to keep the poorer districts at a similar level to what they were before. I was reading about one district where(and I'm making up numbers because I forget the extend of funding itself, but percentage wise this is pretty accurate), last year they received about $19 million in state funding, because of the economy they budgeted on receiving a cutback to $14 million in funding, and then the state came out with its numbers and they got $5 million. I'm not trying to argue for/against the equity of which districts should receive what, but the severity of the immediate change, without any warning or ability to preplan has caused a great deal of havoc.

[weezie]

Lord Ash, I hope you at least feel better after your statement.
Sounds like a nightmare. What's the deal with the school system lawyers and the judges in your state? Can't anybody put together a coherent argument against these parents? Is your superintendent a moron, too?

[InSpades]

The cuts that were made were a percentage of the total budget (not a percentage of the state aid). So if a town got 5% of it's budget from the state... they could lose their entire state funding. Whereas if a town got 40% of their budget from the state then they would only lose 1/8th of their state funding. Both districts would face making up a different of 5% in their total budget (which could be accomplished with raising property taxes). And yes the 40% vs. 5% difference is a reality (which may be another problem in and of itself).

[theAlaskanBear]

As far as teacher-parent interactions go, my roommate is teaching right now, and my mother was a teacher for many many years, so I have some funny and some depressing stories, but I agree with the OP.

People talk about America's failing schools, but bottom line is the home is as important as the school environment. My roommate has stories of of parents who are concerned and involved and their children tend to do really well.

She has many students though with almost no home support, and generally they are doing terribly. Some parents care and try, but are simply too busy or overwhelmed supporting their families (especially a problem with single parents and multiple kids). Others generally don't care and are just lousy or lazy parents. There is another segment that just has really, really bad or messy home lives....kids going through really difficult situations and as a result they act out or become disinterested.

Nothing is as important as parent involvement in education.

[Lord Ash]

A few things:)

Yeah, that is one thing that kills me, Kansas... we teachers don't push for a child to go to special ed because we are angry or don't like them... we push because they need that extra attention or that modified program. Now that I teach the oldest kids in my school (the sixth grade) it is amazing how many kids we refer to special ed... probably 5x what the fifth grade recommends, because we see the kids, and we see how doomed they are in middle school without formal "protection" in the form of modifications and allowances. It is tough, too, because so many lower grade teachers, even when the students are not classified, still go SO far out of their way to help the kids. While the thought is kind and the motives genuine, in the end this just hurts the kids, as some parents say "But wait... my kids was getting Bs in 4th and 5th grade... why are they failing in 6th?" That is, in some ways, the fault of the school, which is afraid to make waves, but in some ways the parents have to accept some responsibility too; new teachers literally get threatened when they refer a kid to special education, and older teachers come under ENORMOUS pressure from parents when they do. Terrible, I know, but...

And I'm with you; when I was sick, I was SICK, and I was not allowed out of bed until the next morning! The worst part is that kid I wrote about is a great kid (who is getting Ds) and I ADORE the family... I've had all three of their kids, and they are a loving, caring, wonderful bunch... but the kids all get Ds and Fs in school, and the parents are always wondering why?

Des, funny you should mention Asia... we have a HUGE Korean population in my school, and I'll tell you what; they take education awful seriously! It is quite nice, to be honest:)

Weez, honestly I don't know a ton about the outcomes of these cases, but the problem to me is simply the school has such a hard time affording it. We already cannot buy some books, we struggle to get supplies, there are teachers who run out of paper... heck, our district has run out of money for the year, so if you need something, it comes out of your pockets... and on top of that, the sheer amount of work involved when a parent sues is insane and ties up teachers and administrators for countless hours... hours needed for other, more legit cases.

Bear, I agree. Schools cannot educate without support at home, and unfortunately we as a society seem to have stepped away from that a bit... we've gone from "Do what your teacher says" to "I believe anything my 10 year old says about their mean teacher." I cannot tell you how many times a kid will go home with some bizarre story and the parents straight up believe them. An old teacher joke is parents should only believe about 10% of what their kids report to them. And another change from "my day?" My parents would not have called the principal unless someone was MURDERED. But now, parents hear bizarre stories from their kid and IMMEDIATELY call the principal. What happened to talking to the teachers, and figuring out if a story is true? That seems to have done the way of the dodo. Respect for teachers is, unfortunately, disappearing.

Now Spade, I did want to save you for last, and I don't want this to turn political:)

However, a few notes...

First, I cannot speak for too many districts. However, I can tell you that my own small district had a $14 million budget last year. The state told the school it would lose $250,000, and we did. Then, two days before the budgets were due to the state, the state cut another $750,000. Our district, which is run about as responsibly and carefully as you can imagine with no fat, suddenly had a massive hole that they had no reason to expect, and which was, frankly, devastating. We faced cutting computers, foreign languages, art, sports, and a host of other things. In the end they had to raise town taxes in these tough economic times by 6%, which enabled them to save some things, but still computers, languages, art, music, some sports, and a host of other programs were trimmed or cut. My wife's district, named one of the Top 25 in the nation by Forbes just this year, lost something around 4 million, had to cut over thirty positions, elective course, instrumental music, and more, and just had their budget voted down as well, so I don't know how they are going to manage frankly... massive cuts, I suppose.

What angers me the most is that NJ Governor Christie has attacked teachers so viciously and unfairly for his own political good.

He has taken advantage of tough economic times, has chosen teachers as the villains, and has attacked us relentlessly. He accuses us teachers of being a major cause for the budget shortfalls in New Jersey. He accused us teachers of being like drug dealers, of using our students as drug mules to get teacher propaganda into homes. He has accused us of being greedy, of putting our salaries ahead of our students needs. He has threatened our contracts, our pensions, our salaries, our benefits, when he promised in the election that he would not. He has made bizarre connections between freezing teacher pay and lower taxes, and called on all towns to vote down budgets where teachers did not volunteer to freeze their pay, which would further cripple our education beyond what his cuts already have... and lo and behold, the towns where teachers agreed to take a salary freeze still voted down their budgets. The state budget offices have actually openly said that freezing teacher pays would have no impact on teacher layoffs and tax increases, but he has ignored this and continued his political attack. Christie has attacked teacher unions (which are not some faceless vampire, but are myself and the 60 year old 1st grade teacher and the 26 year old 5th grade teacher) as being engines of greed, of trying to do nothing but milk the already-suffering citizens of NJ (which, of course, we are) for money. Christie has engaged in a disgusting attack on among the most important, most vulnerable, and lowest paid professionals around... and all while he has hired his wife a $150,000 secretary and increased the size and salary of his own office many times over.

As a teacher, I will never make more money because times are good. I will never have my contract opened so I can get a pay raise. I contribute thousands to my pension every year, and unfortunately I'll never get it back because the state, illegally, and for years, did not match and spent my money on pet projects for politicians so they would get re-elected. So now thousands and thousands of my hard earned dollars just disappear each year, and I have no recourse... after all, legally we have gotten nowhere, and if we strike we get arrested. I have eight years of teaching experience and five years of professional experience of a high level, my last non-teaching job being running three minor league sports teams. I have three degrees from Duke University (and I graduated in '97, when we were #4 in the country undergrad) and a Masters from Columbia. I get to work at 7:30 AM, and leave between 4:30 and 5:00 PM, only to go home and grade for hours. My students regularly test well, and more importantly to me come away from my class with a diverse education, an enthusiasm for learning, a drive to be better students, and an understanding of and appreciation for what it takes to be both a good citizen and a good person.

And for this I make $50,000 a year, which is about $30,000 after taxes and pension money are taken out, but before I have to pay my mortgage. I know of no one else with my experience and education, both of which I am sure are appreciated in this place of intellectual honesty and rigor, who makes so little. And still I am attacked by my governor for being greedy, for not caring about my children, for not caring about my fellow citizens, for being a major cause of the budget problems of New Jersey. "I cannot accept this unfair criticism myself, cannot stomach the cutting of such important educational programs, and cannot believe that this will bring our best and brightest to one of our most valuable positions. Hence, the gradual crumbling of education in New Jersey."

/rant

:)

[InSpades]

The average teacher in NJ makes $58,000+. In addition they get 28 cents on the dollar in benefits which brings the total w/ benefits to over $70,000. Again this is an average (many make more, many make less). This is for 10 months of work. If you think that compares poorly with other professionals... then who are you comparing to? Doctors? Lawyers? It probably doesn't compare favorably to other Duke grads but teaching doesn't pay more based on where you went to school. You know how the system works better than I do I'm sure.

The pension thing is a disaster. NJ has been run terribly poorly for a long time and the pension fund has suffered. I do think the whole thing is somewhat unsustainable. We pay $15,000 per child per year and we're not even funding the pension (as you know). If we funded the pension what would that become? $17,000? How much is too much?

Teachers pay something like 5% into their pension? The state would have to basically double that in match to fund the pensions. It is already billions of dollars behind... I don't see how it will catch up. It is a time bomb that will eventually blow up. Atleast Christie is trying to address this. Corzine ignored it for 4 years. I'm sure teachers won't like the solution (lower salaries, cut benefits, etc.) but it's better than just letting it run out and dealing with it when it does.

[Channing]

out of curiosity, how did the student who was mute for six years advance grade to grade? cant he be held back for not meeting some sort of standards?

[theAlaskanBear]

The average teacher in NJ makes $58,000+. In addition they get 28 cents on the dollar in benefits which brings the total w/ benefits to over $70,000. Again this is an average (many make more, many make less). This is for 10 months of work. If you think that compares poorly with other professionals... then who are you comparing to? Doctors? Lawyers? It probably doesn't compare favorably to other Duke grads but teaching doesn't pay more based on where you went to school. You know how the system works better than I do I'm sure.

The pension thing is a disaster. NJ has been run terribly poorly for a long time and the pension fund has suffered. I do think the whole thing is somewhat unsustainable. We pay $15,000 per child per year and we're not even funding the pension (as you know). If we funded the pension what would that become? $17,000? How much is too much?

Teachers pay something like 5% into their pension? The state would have to basically double that in match to fund the pensions. It is already billions of dollars behind... I don't see how it will catch up. It is a time bomb that will eventually blow up. Atleast Christie is trying to address this. Corzine ignored it for 4 years. I'm sure teachers won't like the solution (lower salaries, cut benefits, etc.) but it's better than just letting it run out and dealing with it when it does.

I don't know about NJ salaries, because I'm in NC, but throwing out that "10-months of work" is complete nonsense. If you clocked how much work teachers do at school and then at home, you would find most teachers work over 60 hours a week. My roommate leaves at 6, doesnt get back until 6, and then after dinner she is grading papers or lesson-planning until she goes to bed. Part of the problem is that the school has her teaching material she is not qualified for (earth science, when her degrees are physics/chemistry) so she has to learn the material herself before teaching it to the class (high school).

So they work WAY more hours than they are "salaried" for. Beginning teachers, if you divide salary by hours worked, it truly is a dismal statistic.

But the biggest issues with high school is discipline. By the time kids reach high school they are becoming adults, and a lot of the burden of learned shifts to THEM. But they are not ready or prepared for it. And when you have classes with kids who are average or struggling, just one or two "bad apples" can ruin a whole class. This semester my roommate has been yelled at, cussed at by students, and PHYSICALLY PUSHED by a student. Its not a healthy learning environment! Kids don't care when they get suspended or are out class in ISS, or maybe they do care but they dont know any other way to act or show it.

[gus]

The average teacher in NJ makes $58,000+. In addition they get 28 cents on the dollar in benefits which brings the total w/ benefits to over $70,000.

You're misusing statistics there. Having an average salary of 58K is different than saying the average teacher makes 58k. The average bonus at Goldman this year was around 500k. I guarantee the average worker at Goldman got nowhere near that amount.


No doubt there are a bunch of parents who never should have had offspring but to say that NJ or it's Governor doesn't care about education is misleading.

heh. Since this is a thread on primary education, let's count the grammar mistakes.

[InSpades]

You're misusing statistics there. Having an average salary of 58K is different than saying the average teacher makes 58k. The average bonus at Goldman this year was around 500k. I guarantee the average worker at Goldman got nowhere near that amount.


I'd love to know how you define an average person in a statistical manner.



heh. Since this is a thread on primary education, let's count the grammar mistakes.

Oh no. The grammar police are coming to get me... I'm sure we couldn't find any written mistakes in your response.

[Duke4Ever32]

I'm sure we couldn't find any written mistakes in your response.

I didn't find any.

[calltheobvious]

I don't know about NJ salaries, because I'm in NC, but throwing out that "10-months of work" is complete nonsense. If you clocked how much work teachers do at school and then at home, you would find most teachers work over 60 hours a week. My roommate leaves at 6, doesnt get back until 6, and then after dinner she is grading papers or lesson-planning until she goes to bed. Part of the problem is that the school has her teaching material she is not qualified for (earth science, when her degrees are physics/chemistry) so she has to learn the material herself before teaching it to the class (high school).

So they work WAY more hours than they are "salaried" for. Beginning teachers, if you divide salary by hours worked, it truly is a dismal statistic.

But the biggest issues with high school is discipline. By the time kids reach high school they are becoming adults, and a lot of the burden of learned shifts to THEM. But they are not ready or prepared for it. And when you have classes with kids who are average or struggling, just one or two "bad apples" can ruin a whole class. This semester my roommate has been yelled at, cussed at by students, and PHYSICALLY PUSHED by a student. Its not a healthy learning environment! Kids don't care when they get suspended or are out class in ISS, or maybe they do care but they dont know any other way to act or show it.

Not that you need my help, but to quote the person who supervised my student-teaching semester, "Doctors, lawyers and engineers may be salaried for more hours in a year than I am, but they sure as hell don't work any more minutes." If that line isn't clear, ask a teacher to explain it sometime.

Another item you didn't mention is what happens to non-tenured teachers trying to get a first job or a job in a new district. I don't think many people realize that "What can you coach?" is usually the last question asked before such a candidate is extended a job offer. It doesn't matter whether one has any expertise, it's understood that there is no offer of full-time employment without an agreement to coach something. Such "coaches" are generally paid "supplements" that often work out to $3 an hour, and commonly less.

What's frustrating about having to endure this hazing ritual is that unlike for say, medical residents, there's no big payday waiting at the end. Instead, if one is eventually granted tenure, and therefore the power to say no to such assignments, it only opens up time in one's schedule to dedicate to the (unpaid)extra work highlighted upthread.

[JohnGalt]

Lord Ash, I hope you at least feel better after your statement.
Sounds like a nightmare. What's the deal with the school system lawyers and the judges in your state? Can't anybody put together a coherent argument against these parents? Is your superintendent a moron, too?

Indeed a nightmare, but the lawyers and the State are the problem. Spending more money in a labyrinth of bureaucracy already strapped by unsustainable finances sounds awfully counterproductive to me. Just ask California which provides an excellent example for the direction in which the rest of country is following.

[gus]

I'd love to know how you define an average person in a statistical manner.

That ball is in your court: you used the term "average teacher" when citing salaries.



Oh no. The grammar police are coming to get me... I'm sure we couldn't find any written mistakes in your response.

The grammar police
They live inside of my head
The grammar police
They come to me in my thread
The grammar police
They're coming to arrest me
Oh no!

[InSpades]

That ball is in your court: you used the term "average teacher" when citing salaries.


And you used "average worker at Goldman" in your response. Do you have anything of substance to add to the conversation?

[cf-62]

And you used "average worker at Goldman" in your response. Do you have anything of substance to add to the conversation?

With certain measurements, such as salary, home prices, bonuses, etc. "average" isn't a true measure of what the average employee / consumer gets.

The appropriate measure is median:

For example, if you had a small set of 10 employees, 1 of them received $0 bonus, 8 of them received $1,000, and 1 received $5M, the AVERAGE bonus is $500K but the median bonus is $1000 (which is what the average employee receives). Of course, if the paper reports that the median bonus as Goldman Sachs was $1000, then it's not a story.

Now I'm not defending Wall Street because after the government ponied up a bailout, people still lost almost everything in the market, but the brokers and traders in NYC were still out living the high life. All the bailout did was keep the fund managers' and their employees' lifetsyles in the decadent realm.

[darthur]

Of course, my current source of frustration is the IB program. I teach IB Computer Science as well as Mathematics. And in their curriculum review, they decided to recommend out of the 150 hours or so of recommended class time, the time that needs to be allotted for teaching programming... 11 hours. So by fiat, one of my courses is about to become, well, useless.

Yeah... I got an IB degree in 2000 from Canada, and higher-level computer science was an incredible waste of time. I am now a software engineer at Google and not one things I learned from IB computer science is relevant or useful. It was a frustrating class to take - I can only imagine how frustrating it would be to teach.

I thought IB math was fine, although too rigid to compete with the strongest US math programs in high school.

[Eckster]

Getting away from the salary issues that have hijacked the thread, the whole story is a terrible indictment of our society as a whole. There is very little in the way of personal responsibility these days. Everyone with any problem cannot just take responsiblility for it. No one seems to recognize that there could be anything wrong with themselves or their children. You must have a disease! You can't help it! With kids, it's hard not to believe that so much of this stems from a general sense that we will easiily bruise children's self-esteem. Therefore, there are never any losers (everyone gets a trophy), dodgeball is bad (some kids will get hit with the ball and will feel bad), can't play tag on the playground (some kids will lose and feel bad), etc. Some schools have stopped giving tests since some kids will do poorly and feel bad about it and it will stunt their growth somehow. My god, where will this go next? Parents that think the schools are out to get them and label their child as different are missing the point! There are kids with issues! There are parents with issues! Maybe both need help. I put my kids in private school to avoid some of these issues but they exist there too. Thanks to the teachers who really care and are trying to fix the problems but my god, good luck! With the threat of getting sued for attempting to help kids, who's going to go the extra mile to do that? Hard not to believe we're not doomed.

[darthur]

And you used "average worker at Goldman" in your response. Do you have anything of substance to add to the conversation?

I am not sure if he's right to doubt your figure (I do not claim to know off-hand what the true salary stats are for teachers in NJ), but Gus's point is perfectly clear if you know a little stats.

When someone says the average teacher earns $58K, this usually means 50% of teachers earn at least $58K. In other words, the MEDIAN teacher salary is $58K.
This is very different from saying the average teacher salary is $58K, which always means the MEAN teacher salary is $58K.

Since the mean salary will always be higher (often much higher) than the median salary, and since most salary stats are mean not median, it's an important thing to pay attention to. It is not a small mistake, and it has tripped up many people before.

I disagree vehemently with your overall point too, but the PP board is dead and I won't argue it here.

[InSpades]

I am not sure if he's right to doubt your figure (I do not claim to know off-hand what the true salary stats are for teachers in NJ), but Gus's point is perfectly clear if you know a little stats.

When someone says the average teacher earns $58K, this usually means 50% of teachers earn at least $58K. In other words, the MEDIAN teacher salary is $58K.
This is very different from saying the average teacher salary is $58K, which always means the MEAN teacher salary is $58K.

Since the mean salary will always be higher (often much higher) than the median salary, and since most salary stats are mean not median, it's an important thing to pay attention to. It is not a small mistake, and it has tripped up many people before.

I disagree vehemently with your overall point too, but the PP board is dead and I won't argue it here.

I know plenty of stats, thanks for sharing though. Saying "average worker" is meaningless. You can claim it means median but that doesn't make it true. Regardless, it is nit-picking. Do you really think the median and the average teacher salary are that different? The average (which is the # I listed) is more meaningful to the discussion anyway.

You can vehemently disagree all you want but you probably don't know much about the financial situation in NJ. I really don't want to get into a discussion about it either... especially when people throw out ridiculous lines like "most teachers work over 60 hours a week". The state of NJ voiced their opinion on taxes and school budgets recently... I tend to agree with the majority opinion.

[darthur]

I know plenty of stats, thanks for sharing though. Saying "average worker" is meaningless. You can claim it means median but that doesn't make it true.

It's not true just because I said so. It's true because (a) it's the only meaning that makes any sense whatsoever in the context of a single stat (salary in our case), and (b) because that's how it's used, regardless of whether you find it philosophically objectionable.


Regardless, it is nit-picking. Do you really think the median and the average teacher salary are that different? The average (which is the # I listed) is more meaningful to the discussion anyway.

Mean vs median can make a huge difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Mean_income
"Overall, the mean household income in the United States, according to the US Census Bureau 2004 Economic Survey, was $60,528, or $17,210 (39.73%) higher than the median household income."

And no, mean is never the right stat to consider in politics. Mean is about the few top-paid people, median is about the many less-paid people. And in politics, the many is more important than the few. There's a reason you phrased your point the way you did it - what the "average" guy earns is what matters, and mean simply does not measure that.

Now, in the case of New Jersey teaching salaries, the difference probably will be well under 40% because the range of salaries will be smaller. But the fact is you falsely quoted a stat at the beginning of your post, and then when called on it, you blew smoke and still haven't admitted your mistake. If you can't back down even where you are flat-out wrong, why should I or anyone else believe anything you have to say?


especially when people throw out ridiculous lines like "most teachers work over 60 hours a week".

If you think it's ridiculous, you have no idea what it's like to be a high school teacher.

[InSpades]

It's not true just because I said so. It's true because (a) it's the only meaning that makes any sense whatsoever in the context of a single stat (salary in our case), and (b) because that's how it's used, regardless of whether you find it philosophically objectionable.



Mean vs median can make a huge difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Mean_income
"Overall, the mean household income in the United States, according to the US Census Bureau 2004 Economic Survey, was $60,528, or $17,210 (39.73%) higher than the median household income."

And no, mean is never the right stat to consider in politics. Mean is about the few top-paid people, median is about the many less-paid people. And in politics, the many is more important than the few. There's a reason you phrased your point the way you did it - what the "average" guy earns is what matters, and mean simply does not measure that.

Now, in the case of New Jersey teaching salaries, the difference probably will be well under 40% because the range of salaries will be smaller. But the fact is you falsely quoted a stat at the beginning of your post, and then when called on it, you blew smoke and still haven't admitted your mistake. If you can't back down even where you are flat-out wrong, why should I or anyone else believe anything you have to say?



If you think it's ridiculous, you have no idea what it's like to be a high school teacher.

So you think that most teachers work more than 60 hours? I know plenty of teachers and none of them work 60 hours. The only one who comes close does so because he coaches sports (which is something he enjoys and is paid for).

I already said that "average teacher" is meaningless. Which means I was wrong in saying it. I meant "the average salary of a NJ teacher". Are you happy now?

The mean is absolutely the right stat to use in this argument. It shows how much we are spending on teacher salaries. If I told you the median was $55,000 and we had 100,000 teachers... then how much are we spending in all? You have no idea.

I like how all of your examples of median being significantly different than mean involve comparing people who have entirely different jobs. These people all have the same job... they are all on the same pay scale. There's no one making a million dollars dragging the average up.

[darthur]

I shouldn't be giving you such a hard time - I'm sorry. You obviously feel strongly about teacher salaries. I do too, but I don't want to argue about that. I was only annoyed by how glibly you rebuffed what I thought was a perfectly valid point.


So you think that most teachers work more than 60 hours? I know plenty of teachers and none of them work 60 hours. The only one who comes close does so because he coaches sports (which is something he enjoys and is paid for).

No I don't - my phrasing there was important =). What I really think is it's close enough to be not ridiculous. Every teacher I have known works 60 hours or close to it. They are more dedicated than normal I'm sure, but they aren't getting paid much more than normal, and the statement is not so far off as to be ridiculous.


I already said that "average teacher" is meaningless. Which means I was wrong in saying it. I meant "the average salary of a NJ teacher". Are you happy now?

Happier. But the criticism was never that "average teacher" is meaningless. You might find it so, but everyone else who responded read it as "median teacher" or something very similar. That just IS what it means to most people, which means you shouldn't use it that way if it's not what you mean. Gus wasn't giving you a hard time because he thought your statement was imprecise. He was giving you a hard time because he thought it was wrong.


The mean is absolutely the right stat to use in this argument. It shows how much we are spending on teacher salaries. If I told you the median was $55,000 and we had 100,000 teachers... then how much are we spending in all? You have no idea.

You were responding to a quality of life complaint. If you tell me the mean is $55,000 and you have 100,000 teachers, then I have no idea what the quality of life is for most teachers.


I like how all of your examples of median being significantly different than mean involve comparing people who have entirely different jobs.

I had only one example and I specifically pointed out this problem. If I knew where to find a mean vs median salary stat for public school teachers in NJ, I would have said something about that instead. But you doubted that mean vs median matters, and I said all I could, which is it CAN matter.

[Brian913]

The median salary (w/o benefits) for an elementary teacher in NJ was about $55K in 2006. For high school only districts, about $65K. These are probably about 7-10% per cent higher now.

The median teacher per pupil salary is about $7K, again without benefits.

[InSpades]

You were responding to a quality of life complaint. If you tell me the mean is $55,000 and you have 100,000 teachers, then I have no idea what the quality of life is for most teachers.


If the average is $58,000 and the median is $40,000 then that is a problem with how the money is divided and not a problem with how much money there is to divide. I'm not speaking to qualify of life... just the amount that the NJ taxpayers are spending.

Teachers that work very hard probably are underpaid, but that is a result of how their salaries are structured. There is no way to monetarily reward teachers who work hard and punish teachers who don't work hard. Should we pay them all like they work 60 hours even if they only work 40?

[allenmurray]

So you think that most teachers work more than 60 hours? I know plenty of teachers and none of them work 60 hours.


My experience (I am a former central office administrator for a large urban school system and am currently employed in a nation-wide research study regarding school effectiveness) is that 60 may be a bit higher than my experience. Most high school teachers I know arrive about 45 minutes before the school day beginns and stay about 60 minutes after it ends (the more dedicated ones I know often stay 90 minutes late 4 days a week to offer after school tutoring). In addition, most I know work about 90 minutes each evening on average in grading and preparation. I'd think 50 hours a week is a minimum for most, with 60 being the very high end of average. For newer teachers the rate is usually quite a bit higher. Teaching the same course for a few years might reduce the preparation time you need to prepare lessons.

Intertestingly, teachers who teach honors and AP courses often work fewer hours. If the course you teach has 6 or 7 students with disabilities mainstreamed in, and the other students range from those who struggle with the material to those who are dead-on average students, it takes a lot more time to be well prepared. Teachers who have advanced students often are able to assign interesteing work to already motivated students and therefore have less preparation to do ahead of time. It is also simpler to evaluate and grade outsanding work than work that is less than stellar. Of course, it is the veteran teachers who have worked their way up who get the honors and AP courses, and the beginner teachers who are still getting their sea-legs who get the tough classes. So in terms of work load/hours, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

[allenmurray]

If the average is $58,000 and the median is $40,000 then that is a problem with how the money is divided and not a problem with how much money there is to divide.

A lot (a surprisingly large amount) of teachers leave within five years of joining the profession. So what you have in many school systems is a large group of beginner teachers (low on the salary scale) and a small group at the very upper end of the scale. You often don't have a typical distribution. That is what makes using mean or median difficult when discussing teacher salaries. In many preofessions you'll have an equal distribution of experience levels in a system. In teaching that is less true.

[InSpades]

A lot (a surprisingly large amount) of teachers leave within five years of joining the profession. So what you have in many school systems is a large group of beginner teachers (low on the salary scale) and a small group at the very upper end of the scale. You often don't have a typical distribution. That is what makes using mean or median difficult when discussing teacher salaries. In many preofessions you'll have an equal distribution of experience levels in a system. In teaching that is less true.

Maybe in NJ things are different? According to recent news 29,000 teachers (about 20%) are already eligible for retirement. This came out because the teacher's union is saying they may all retire if changes are made to the existing retirement system. It has also been very difficult to get a teaching job in NJ over the past 5+ years (most new graduates are encouraged to go special ed or math/science in order to get a job). I'd bet that the NJ distribution is a lot further skewed (did I use that term right?) to higher ages than most states.

[Brian913]

Concerning the salary of teachers in NJ, here is a list of the distrcits with greater than $40K starting salary. As best I can tell, it includes every district that has a school (yes, we still have school districts in NJ that don't have schools, though about half of them were eliminated last year.)

There are somewhat over 100 districts that have starting salaries of over $50,000.

Of course, in addition, there are benefits and stipends for additional activities (club advisors, coaching, etc.)

http://www.njea.org/pdfs/40Kminimum.pdf

[Lord Ash]

Uhm... so what am I supposed to get from this, other than it is a joke that a professional in one of the most important jobs our country has is paid about the same as my 19 year old cousin who, as a college junior, interned at Barclays getting coffee? I am sorry, but talk of 40k or 50k just makes me think "Wow, we really DON'T get paid enough for the crap we do."

And as someone already said, 60 hours is not uncommon for a teacher. I am a vet at this point who knows his material inside and out and who FIRMLY believes that I am not going to kill myself with hours I don't get paid for (i.e. I don't put in as many hours as many) and I still usually work 55 hours a week.

I think comparing myself to my fellow Duke grads is just fine, thanks much, since those are the people I share my background with:)

Anyway... I think salaries and taxes was not the original point of the post... I think I was more lamenting how difficult some people make a profession that is already difficult enough, and how annoying it is that this happens so regularly. Just today I had another one... a parent who emailed me that her child was allowed to use calculators whenever she wants because of a documented disability. I promptly checked the documents; nothing. I did not let the child use a calculator since she had no documentation... only to be told bby the principal to go ahead ald let her, so the mom wouldn't sue the school. Again.

*sigh*

[allenmurray]

Maybe in NJ things are different? According to recent news 29,000 teachers (about 20%) are already eligible for retirement. This came out because the teacher's union is saying they may all retire if changes are made to the existing retirement system. It has also been very difficult to get a teaching job in NJ over the past 5+ years (most new graduates are encouraged to go special ed or math/science in order to get a job). I'd bet that the NJ distribution is a lot further skewed (did I use that term right?) to higher ages than most states.

Probably true about NJ (and MA, PA, CT, and others). Many of these states are shrinking in need for teachers and it is hard for new teachers to get established there. I know NC recruits heavily in some of these states as college grads in these states can't find jobs close to home. However, nationally teachers skew toward the inexperienced as systems are constantly rehiring for those who leave after 3, 4, or 5 years.

[InSpades]

I think comparing myself to my fellow Duke grads is just fine, thanks much, since those are the people I share my background with:)


Yes. Let's pay all teachers like they are Duke grads. That would make a lot of sense.

If you didn't want your point to be confused then maybe you shouldn't have called your governor an idiot in your original post. Just an idea.

I don't know how many hours you work per week. I do know that a lot of people do the minimum that is required of them to keep themselves employed.

[DukieInKansas]

I think I would win points with Lord Ash. When my nephew would do his homework around me (elementary & middle school years as I recall), I would not let him use a calculator even though his teacher did. I asked him how he would know the calculator was correct if he didn't have some idea of what the answer should be. He finally wised up - and quit doing his math homework when I was around. :D

[Lord Ash]

Yes. Let's pay all teachers like they are Duke grads. That would make a lot of sense.


Funny, I never said anything about paying all teachers like they are Duke grads. You, of course, know the difference between "comparing salaries" and saying "I want what he gets."




If you didn't want your point to be confused then maybe you shouldn't have called your governor an idiot in your original post. Just an idea.



Maybe you are correct about calling the governor an idiot leading off the topic... I admit, I am personally very upset over this issue. I guess I take it personally when the highest elected official in my state attacks me and my profession more vehemently than I can remember any government official, EVER, attacking a profession... especially a profession like teachers... blames me and my co-workers for the fiscal issues of my state, and then urges my fellow NJ residents to attack their own towns abilities to educate their kids. My bad.




I don't know how many hours you work per week. I do know that a lot of people do the minimum that is required of them to keep themselves employed.

I guess I do not know the same people you do. I certainly don't know a single teacher, either at my school, my wife's school (also a teacher) or my mom's school (also a teacher!) who does the minimum to stay employed. Teaching is not a profession that you can do that in and survive. It is impossible; you only get paid for the hours you are contracted for, and there is no time to do anything other than direct instruction in that time.

I suppose those people do exist in other professions... maybe I am just lucky to know mainly people are are determined and proud.


Kansas, you would definitely. Sounds like you helped raise a smart nephew, too:)

[InSpades]

I guess I do not know the same people you do. I certainly don't know a single teacher, either at my school, my wife's school (also a teacher) or my mom's school (also a teacher!) who does the minimum to stay employed. Teaching is not a profession that you can do that in and survive. It is impossible; you only get paid for the hours you are contracted for, and there is no time to do anything other than direct instruction in that time.

I suppose those people do exist in other professions... maybe I am just lucky to know mainly people are are determined and proud.

So your premise is that teachers (who can't be fired due to tenure and also don't get raises based on performance) work harder than people in other jobs who can be fired for working too little and can be rewarded with raises for outstanding performance?

Exactly what would happen to a teacher who did the minimum to stay employed after reaching tenure? How would they "not survive"? I had a teacher in high school who would come into class most days and read to us out of the textbook. He seemed to survive just fine. There are gym teachers making $90k+ in NJ. How much prep work do you have to do for that?

I can see why you would be defensive about teacher salaries in NJ. If my entire household income was based on it I would probably see things differently too.

[Lord Ash]

I'll respond more later (I have a meeting to run to) but again, I think you are drawing conclusions from what I am saying that I am not really intending. I CERTAINLY don't think teachers necessarily work harder than anyone else. I do, however, think they are barely properly compensated for their work, and I do think it is a job that will basically chew up and spit out anyone who approaches it without a willingness to put in a lot of extra work. I think you also have a somewhat unrealistic view about tenure and the rest. .. but I'll maybe explain it more later:)

Unfortunately, as you note, both my wife and I are teachers, and living in a very expensive state (although off in the mountains and woods of that state:) so what is happening right now in education is a very "important" issue for us both, especially moving forward as she might be out of work to have a child soon and then go back into the system as a "new" hire, where a lot of the "damage" is being done. Apparently we are about to discuss a potential pay freeze as well at the meeting I am running off to... good fun!:)

I honestly will try to cut back any snarky-ness that peeks through; just know that if it does, it is very much tied into my family situation and that I do view teaching as a very "noble" profession:)

[allenmurray]

I'll respond more later (I have a meeting to run to) but again, I think you are drawing conclusions from what I am saying that I am not really intending. I CERTAINLY don't think teachers necessarily work harder than anyone else. I do, however, think they are barely properly compensated for their work, and I do think it is a job that will basically chew up and spit out anyone who approaches it without a willingness to put in a lot of extra work. I think you also have a somewhat unrealistic view about tenure and the rest. .. but I'll maybe explain it more later:)

Unfortunately, as you note, both my wife and I are teachers, and living in a very expensive state (although off in the mountains and woods of that state:) so what is happening right now in education is a very "important" issue for us both, especially moving forward as she might be out of work to have a child soon and then go back into the system as a "new" hire, where a lot of the "damage" is being done. Apparently we are about to discuss a potential pay freeze as well at the meeting I am running off to... good fun!:)

I honestly will try to cut back any snarky-ness that peeks through; just know that if it does, it is very much tied into my family situation and that I do view teaching as a very "noble" profession:)

I'll take your "snarkiness" as a teacher and your dedication to the job over InSpades apparant disrespect for the profession anyday.

He also is basing many of his observations on things that are no longer true, are myths, or are exagerated. And since he does not work in education , and I have been a teacher, school system administator, university instructor at a school of education and an educational resaercher I have a feeling I am more correct than is he. I also have a feeling he doesn't care who is right or wrong, that he just has a bone to pick with the teaching profession, and he is best ignored.

[DukieInKansas]

My guess is that there are crappy teachers who are overpaid in every school district in the country. To judge all teachers based on those, hopefully, few individuals is not fair.

I think teaching is much more difficult than it was "back in the day" when I was in elementary through high school. I was brought up in a family where you respected the teachers/principals, even if they didn't deserve it, and getting in trouble in school was the least of your problems. Coming home and facing the disappointment in my parent's eyes was much worse than any detention. It seems that now that a lot of parents want the schools to do the teaching/raising of kids without their involvement - unless it isn't being done the way they want. I have a friend that was substitute teaching a few years ago. She quit the day that she came home with bruises from her students. She found out later that the substitute she replaced broke her ankle when students caused her to fall down the stairs. Another friend didn't renew his contract this year because the principal didn't support the teachers in terms of discipline and didn't even know the rules of the school/district in terms of what required suspension - i.e. fighting in school is an automatic 3 day suspension.

I commend Lord Ash and all the teachers that genuinely care about their students, take time to find interesting ways and things to teach, and continue on through times they feel underappreciated. They are working with the future of our country and world.

ETA: I know a lot of families that still teach their kids to respect teachers and are actively involved in the schools. I probably let the "few" who don't color my view. Of course, those few are the ones that make the news.

[InSpades]

I'm not really all that anti-teacher... I just think things are currently out of whack (in NJ). When the gym teacher makes 50% more than the english teacher doesn't it make you wonder about if things are fair? Do we have our priorities in order? I hear things like "we had to cut middle school sports" and "we had to fire our dance teacher" and I wonder what's going on in this state.

I think a large amount of the problem in NJ is not teacher salaries, but everything else that goes into education. Compare NJ to Pennsylvania for example... NJ spends about 30% more per child on education. Yet NJ teachers get paid about 5% more. Where is that other 25% going? To me it seems like teachers are complaining about the size of the pie instead of complaining about getting their fair share of it. There are too many school districts, too many administrators, too much waste.

This is not to blame NJ's problems on education... there are plenty of other things on the list. Education just seems to be taking the brunt of it right now (and that's probably due to it being such a large portion of the budget). I'm willing to give our governor a chance to clean things up... he's only been in office 100 days. If all he has on his agenda is bashing teachers then I'll be right with you in calling him an idiot. For now I will cut him some slack... being put in the position of a multi-billion dollar deficit is not exactly easy.

[RPS]

I'd think 50 hours a week is a minimum for most, with 60 being the very high end of average. For newer teachers the rate is usually quite a bit higher.My better half has taught for a long time and that's consistent with her experience. It seems as though almost every school has a person or two who game the system and, for the public looking to complain, they become the "standard."

Our daughter worked for Teach for America out of college and worked in Coach Carter's high school (remember the movie) in the Bay Area. The school had no windows and her door had multiple bullet holes. TFA considered her a rock star because her proficiency scores were more than three times the district average, but she had absolutely no interest in becoming a career teacher (even though her mother and grandmother were). The lack of pay and, even worse, the lack of respect simply weren't worth it. So she does political and corporate communications consulting in D.C. now.

In DD's very problem-riddled high school, more teachers fit the stereotype InSpades pushes than in my wife's upper middle class district, surely, but that's largely undertandable given the obstacles they face. Bucking the system over the long-term is hard. Very hard.

[InSpades]

I'll take your "snarkiness" as a teacher and your dedication to the job over InSpades apparant disrespect for the profession anyday.

He also is basing many of his observations on things that are no longer true, are myths, or are exagerated. And since he does not work in education , and I have been a teacher, school system administator, university instructor at a school of education and an educational resaercher I have a feeling I am more correct than is he. I also have a feeling he doesn't care who is right or wrong, that he just has a bone to pick with the teaching profession, and he is best ignored.

I'm sorry I actually care about the financial ruin that my state is headed towards. The teachers should care too because it is their pension that is not being funded.

If teachers are so underpaid as most of you seem to suggest... why is there no teacher shortage? Why instead is it near impossible to get most teaching jobs in NJ? It just doesn't add up... $50k starting salary? What college grad right now wouldn't kill for that?

As for myths, exaggerations and "no longer trues"... I would use those words to describe the fact that teachers are underpaid in the state of NJ.

[darthur]

If the average is $58,000 and the median is $40,000 then that is a problem with how the money is divided and not a problem with how much money there is to divide. I'm not speaking to qualify of life... just the amount that the NJ taxpayers are spending.

That's certainly a fair argument.

For what it's worth, I believe it is the government's job to ensure that the median teacher salary is reasonable. If they can't do this because salary is divided too unevenly, they need to fix that. If they can't because they don't have enough money, they need to cut money elsewhere and/or raise taxes.

[Brian913]

That's certainly a fair argument.

For what it's worth, I believe it is the government's job to ensure that the median teacher salary is reasonable. If they can't do this because salary is divided too unevenly, they need to fix that. If they can't because they don't have enough money, they need to cut money elsewhere and/or raise taxes.

The median teacher salary is over $57,000, in NJ.

[Brian913]

That's certainly a fair argument.

For what it's worth, I believe it is the government's job to ensure that the median teacher salary is reasonable. If they can't do this because salary is divided too unevenly, they need to fix that. If they can't because they don't have enough money, they need to cut money elsewhere and/or raise taxes.

FWIW, everybody's pay is based on supply and demand, just like every other product. You can increase pay rates by reducing the supply of qualified workers by unionization, licensing and other means.

[Brian913]

I don't know about NJ salaries, because I'm in NC, but throwing out that "10-months of work" is complete nonsense. If you clocked how much work teachers do at school and then at home, you would find most teachers work over 60 hours a week. My roommate leaves at 6, doesnt get back until 6, and then after dinner she is grading papers or lesson-planning until she goes to bed. Part of the problem is that the school has her teaching material she is not qualified for (earth science, when her degrees are physics/chemistry) so she has to learn the material herself before teaching it to the class (high school).

So they work WAY more hours than they are "salaried" for. Beginning teachers, if you divide salary by hours worked, it truly is a dismal statistic.

But the biggest issues with high school is discipline. By the time kids reach high school they are becoming adults, and a lot of the burden of learned shifts to THEM. But they are not ready or prepared for it. And when you have classes with kids who are average or struggling, just one or two "bad apples" can ruin a whole class. This semester my roommate has been yelled at, cussed at by students, and PHYSICALLY PUSHED by a student. Its not a healthy learning environment! Kids don't care when they get suspended or are out class in ISS, or maybe they do care but they dont know any other way to act or show it.


My experience (I am a former central office administrator for a large urban school system and am currently employed in a nation-wide research study regarding school effectiveness) is that 60 may be a bit higher than my experience. Most high school teachers I know arrive about 45 minutes before the school day beginns and stay about 60 minutes after it ends (the more dedicated ones I know often stay 90 minutes late 4 days a week to offer after school tutoring). In addition, most I know work about 90 minutes each evening on average in grading and preparation. I'd think 50 hours a week is a minimum for most, with 60 being the very high end of average. For newer teachers the rate is usually quite a bit higher. Teaching the same course for a few years might reduce the preparation time you need to prepare lessons.

Intertestingly, teachers who teach honors and AP courses often work fewer hours. If the course you teach has 6 or 7 students with disabilities mainstreamed in, and the other students range from those who struggle with the material to those who are dead-on average students, it takes a lot more time to be well prepared. Teachers who have advanced students often are able to assign interesteing work to already motivated students and therefore have less preparation to do ahead of time. It is also simpler to evaluate and grade outsanding work than work that is less than stellar. Of course, it is the veteran teachers who have worked their way up who get the honors and AP courses, and the beginner teachers who are still getting their sea-legs who get the tough classes. So in terms of work load/hours, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Like almost everybody else, teachers overestimate the amount of time they spend on work. The average is about 40 hours per week when school is in session. http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf

This is not unique to teachers. Every lawyer I know will claim to work 60+ hours a week, but every study shows that the number who actually do work that amount is very small. Most work in the low 40 average.

[tecumseh]

This is not unique to teachers. Every lawyer I know will claim to work 60+ hours a week, but every study shows that the number who actually do work that amount is very small. Most work in the low 40 average.

Claim 60 plus or bill 60, I knew lawyers who bill over 80 and work 40

[Brian913]

Claim 60 plus or bill 60, I knew lawyers who bill over 80 and work 40
The miracle of the ten minute minimum phone call.

[Lord Ash]

Okay, a few thoughts...

First, Spade: teaching is, indeed, a job that you simply cannot do without working a lot of hours you don't get paid for. I get about an hour during the day to each lunch, grade papers, give makeup tests, run detention, have parent meetings, or do whatever I need to do. Obviously, there is no way to do it then. I get about 15 minutes in the morning before the kids show up, and a half hour after school, which is normally meeting time. That ends up leaving a teacher with no time to plan or grade. These take a LOT of time to do... hours and hours and hours. As a teacher you simply could not do the job without spending tons of these hours working. It can't happen; you can't just not grade tests or you will get fired.

Are there teachers who "get by?" Of course, unfortunately. But generally speaking almost every teacher works a lot of hours that they don't get paid for and they are not contracted for.

About tenure... it is very important to know how important it is. I know tenure gets a bad rap, but there are two key things to remember about it.

First, it is very easy to get rid of a teacher who has tenure... just plunk them where they don't want to be. Sixth grade teacher you don't like? Drop them to kindergarten... they won't stay:)

Secondly, tenure is VERY important because without it districts would simply fire all teachers once they got any sort of experience. In a profession where there is no money being made, it becomes very easy for people to say "Well, do we want the $35,000 teacher, or the $70,000 teacher?" Far too often, people will believe that they should simply take the cheaper teacher to babysit. Without tenure, no teacher would stay employed once they gained some experience... districts can be ruthless when trying to get rid of experienced, "expensive" teachers.

Spade, I actually didn't get what you meant at the part where you said you wonder what is going on in this state when we talk about cutting middle school sports and the like... could you explain?

As for relative pay (comparing English teachers to gym teachers) I am not sure what sort of reasonable solution can be made.

There are many teachers who actually do complain, loudly, about administrator pay and waste... unfortunately, we are the VERY bottom of the totem pole. In fact, do you know that the first amendment does not protect teachers? It is a bit scary how limited we are, to be honest... we can complain, but it doesn't mean anyone will listen.

I do agree with you that a lot of NJs problems are not about education; there are some BIG, longstanding issues... and honestly, making fiscal changes in education is not even something I am opposed to... what really makes me angry, however, is Christie's approach to it... his rhetoric has been positively venomous, and it really breaks my heart to hear, especially when I see this man has my future in his hands.

I have to say this though; when you say "What college grad right now wouldn't kill for that?" is a bit misleading... and I am not sure any of the current college grads I know would accept that, to be frank.

And I haven't even argued that teachers are underpaid in NJ; all I am saying is that I sure as heck don't want to be paid thousands less than I am already paid:)

Brian: Where did you get your median teacher salary info? Also, I think the site you linked is a bit... well, off. For example, look at how they gathered info on hours worked... through a phone call about "How much did you work yesterday?" When were those calls made? Weekdays? All days? I wonder how accurate that is.

When it comes to work, I can only speak for myself and the folks I know.

Also, all pay is not based on supply and demand. Pay is often based on the profit a person brings, which in the case of teachers is either A) nothing or B) so much it cannot be calculated, or C) someplace in between:)

Anyway, I have only a few minutes and am dying to use the bathroom... tonight I'll have to post a picture of something I got at school today that folks will enjoy.



Seriously though, I am sorry this took such a political/monetary tone... that really was not what I was focused on discussing originally, and honestly it is just such a huge issue in my life right now that I hate coming to DBR only to be reminded that my job is going down the toilet:)

[InSpades]

My point about middle school sports and dance teachers was to question why we have either of these things in the 1st place. If I wanted to take a dance class or play sports in middle school my parents paid for it.

As for tenure... there are 2 sides of the argument... 1 is that tenure protects good teachers from being fired. The other is that tenure protects bad teachers from being fired as well.

Your argument that it doesn't protect bad teachers is that they could be moved to another teaching job? Seems a little suspect to me. What if they just accept the new job happily? Now you have 1 bad teacher in Kindergarten... do you move the next bad teacher to 1st grade? Also how do you know how they treat bad teachers if you've never seen one :).

Your argument that it protects good teachers is that if we didn't have it the districts would just fire all experienced teachers? You mean the districts that keep giving you raises every year? The districts that approve the payscale to be so much higher for experienced teachers? Those same districts would suddenly fire all the experienced teachers?

So basically your argument comes down to that the people don't value education enough so they would prefer to hire cheap bad teachers instead of expensive good teachers. So tenure is meant to protect education from the public who doesn't value it... Then why do we spend 25 cents out of every dollar in our budget on it?

Do private school teachers have tenure? Do they get fired whenever they start to make more money?

[Brian913]

Okay, a few thoughts...

First, Spade: teaching is, indeed, a job that you simply cannot do without working a lot of hours you don't get paid for. I get about an hour during the day to each lunch, grade papers, give makeup tests, run detention, have parent meetings, or do whatever I need to do. Obviously, there is no way to do it then. I get about 15 minutes in the morning before the kids show up, and a half hour after school, which is normally meeting time. That ends up leaving a teacher with no time to plan or grade. These take a LOT of time to do... hours and hours and hours. As a teacher you simply could not do the job without spending tons of these hours working. It can't happen; you can't just not grade tests or you will get fired.
Are there teachers who "get by?" Of course, unfortunately. But generally speaking almost every teacher works a lot of hours that they don't get paid for and they are not contracted for.

Actually, you're not "working a lot of hours you don't get paid for." You job expects you to be prepared to teach everyday and grade papers. It's no different than many, many other jobs which require preparation time outside of "normal" business hours. I take on a criminal case on a flat fee basis. My fee doesn't just pay for my time in court. It pays for the prep time I spend.




About tenure... it is very important to know how important it is. I know tenure gets a bad rap, but there are two key things to remember about it.

First, it is very easy to get rid of a teacher who has tenure... just plunk them where they don't want to be. Sixth grade teacher you don't like? Drop them to kindergarten... they won't stay:)

Secondly, tenure is VERY important because without it districts would simply fire all teachers once they got any sort of experience. In a profession where there is no money being made, it becomes very easy for people to say "Well, do we want the $35,000 teacher, or the $70,000 teacher?" Far too often, people will believe that they should simply take the cheaper teacher to babysit. Without tenure, no teacher would stay employed once they gained some experience... districts can be ruthless when trying to get rid of experienced, "expensive" teachers.


We have to disagree about both of these points. This is coming from someone who has experience in representing teachers in tenure fights.


what really makes me angry, however, is Christie's approach to it... his rhetoric has been positively venomous, and it really breaks my heart to hear, especially when I see this man has my future in his hands.


There has been equally venomous rhetoric coming from the NJEA. More to the point, there is a fiscal crisis in this state. Every other public employee has had pay freezes and reduction in benefits. Teachers refuse to even discuss the issue.

The pension system as it exists is not sustainable.



Brian: Where did you get your median teacher salary info? Also, I think the site you linked is a bit... well, off. For example, look at how they gathered info on hours worked... through a phone call about "How much did you work yesterday?" When were those calls made? Weekdays? All days? I wonder how accurate that is.

The median salary information is from the DOE website. The minimum salary information is from the NJEA website.

The work week information is based on Bureau of Labor Statistics survey, the more relible source available


When it comes to work, I can only speak for myself and the folks I know.

I am sure that you perceive you are working many more hours than you actually are. You are not alone. For example, in an average workday: you arrive at school at 7:30; teach until 2:30; stay at school another hour for work; drive home, stopping on the way at the store for an hour; eat dinner; sit down and grade papers from 7:30-9:00. You are going to feel that you put in a workday of 12 plus hours, but you really have not. Keep a detailed diary during a normal week and you will be shocked.


Also, all pay is not based on supply and demand. Pay is often based on the profit a person brings, which in the case of teachers is either A) nothing or B) so much it cannot be calculated, or C) someplace in between:)

All pay is based upon supply and demand. I will pay more for the individual who can bring in more profit to me. Those people are in limited supply and demand a higher salary.

[Lord Ash]

Okay, you all win; I can't spend time arguing about this on a message board, it is too depressing and too all-consuming.

I'll put up that picture of the funny thing when I get home:)

[Deslok]

I am sure that you perceive you are working many more hours than you actually are. You are not alone. For example, in an average workday: you arrive at school at 7:30; teach until 2:30; stay at school another hour for work; drive home, stopping on the way at the store for an hour; eat dinner; sit down and grade papers from 7:30-9:00. You are going to feel that you put in a workday of 12 plus hours, but you really have not. Keep a detailed diary during a normal week and you will be shocked.

Detailed diary of my fall:
Monday: In at 7am, school ends 3pm, stay with film club til 5pm. Work for about an hour in lesson prep/grading.
Tuesday: In at 7:15am(less details to take care off than off the weekend). School ends at 3pm. Faculty/departmental meetings til 5. Again, about an hour lesson prep/grading.
Wednesday: In at 7:15am, school ends at 3pm. Referee volleyball matches til about 6pm. Home to work for another hour or so.
Thursday: In at 7:15am, school ends at 3pm. Stay til 4pm for extra help sessions. Home to work for another hour.
Friday: In at 7:15am, school ends at 3pm. Referee volleyball til 6pm. Oh, for those 3 hours of refereeing, I get paid an extra $50. Woo hoo(and yes, it is refereeing school teams for the school, not out of school work).

And I didn't even bring up the 3 day/night weekend retreat with the seniors or the prep involved getting the spirit week/field day going as those are 2 atypical fall weeks where the hours go longer. Sum total of my diary entries: 54 hours.
Am I supposed to be shocked now? I'd respond more, but its 6:10am, and I need to be in school in half an hour(and no, that's in no way shape or form a joke).

[Lord Ash]

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/341/dsc0145t.jpg (http://img532.imageshack.us/i/dsc0145t.jpg/)

For those who have a hard time reading this... it is a note from my boy with undiagnosed aspergers...

"Mr. So and So,

I will like to donate my flame lego piece and give it to you for your lego collection.

(From so and so)"


And just to be clear, I did not have a lego collection. Also, to be clear, I am totally going to treasure my one-piece lego collection:)

[DukieInKansas]

For those who have a hard time reading this... it is a note from my boy with undiagnosed aspergers...

"Mr. So and So,

I will like to donate my flame lego piece and give it to you for your lego collection.

(From so and so)"


And just to be clear, I did not have a lego collection. Also, to be clear, I am totally going to treasure my one-piece lego collection:)

I can understand why you would treasure your one-piece lego collection. This just reinforces the old saying that it is the thought that counts. How sweet.

[tecumseh]

Lord Ash and others, my wife and I are big champions of the local public school system. We (mostly her) have worked countless hours helping in the classrooms, working to get the right candidates to the school board elected, donated hundreds of legal hours to help get rid of the one toxic head of the school board, provided most of the funds to support junior high academic bowl when their funds were cut off, drive kids to away tennis matches, support and worked for a tax hike for the school district. etc etc. Some readers on this board might even use the "L" word to describe me (Liberal)

But as a small business owner and someone who has seen first hand the corrosive effects of it, I am absolutely against tenure. You can make a lot of arguments for it but at the end of the day it protects the dead wood. Teaching is a challenging profession and great teachers can make a real difference, BUT a lousy teacher can do real damage. You cannot manage an organization if you cannot fire chronic under performers, it really is as simple as that. There are work place rules in lots of places that protect against abuses of firing just because you eliminate tenure does not mean that the union work force is subject to the whims of management. The predominant effect of tenure is to protect lousy teachers IMHO. In my profession medicine what if we had tenure for doctors? He is a lousy surgeon and he maims a lot of people but he has tenure at the medical center and there is nothing you can do. If you want to elevate the respect for teachers chop out the dead wood and raise the standard of the profession, eliminate tenure.

[devil84]

And just to be clear, I did not have a lego collection. Also, to be clear, I am totally going to treasure my one-piece lego collection:)

This is awesome. :)

For me, this is what makes teaching (and in my case, serial volunteerism) so much more rewarding than my paid profession.

That one-piece lego collection is priceless!

[RPS]

If you want to elevate the respect for teachers chop out the dead wood and raise the standard of the profession, eliminate tenure.I disagree. I wrote about it in the context of merit pay here (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/search.html?sort=time&source=magazine&q=teacher+tenure+&search=1). A snippet:

"Teachers knowingly trade better pay for job security. Too many teachers, surely, are rewarded with tenure. But good teachers need it desperately in a world where parents increasingly denigrate the teacher’s role and expertise and believe that little Johnny or Judy can do no wrong, or need a different challenge, or less work, or, or, or. Oh the stories I could tell…."

It's bad enough that parents already think that teachers should simply do their bidding and that they know more about teaching than teachers do. They already can make a teacher's life miserable and stir up all kinds of trouble. If parents get the idea that they can get a teacher fired, look out.

[InSpades]

So teachers need tenure so parents can't get them fired? Why would parents be able to get teachers fired in the 1st place? Seems like that is the problem and tenure is a solution that goes above and beyond fixing it.

[JohnGalt]

I disagree. I wrote about it in the context of merit pay here (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/search.html?sort=time&source=magazine&q=teacher+tenure+&search=1). A snippet:

"Teachers knowingly trade better pay for job security. Too many teachers, surely, are rewarded with tenure. But good teachers need it desperately in a world where parents increasingly denigrate the teacher’s role and expertise and believe that little Johnny or Judy can do no wrong, or need a different challenge, or less work, or, or, or. Oh the stories I could tell…."


Just a bit of personal experience here...I went to USMMA in New York where there are tenured professors by the truckload. In my opinion the far majority of the tenured professors were completely out of touch with the subject matter in which they were teaching (i.e. the Maritime industry). Some classes were just absolutely brutal as result of it. They went on and on about archaic subject matter that existed throughout their careers aboard ship, but had little to no relevance today. That being said, there were a small handfull really were quality teachers and - after however many years - continued to put their all into teaching the students the concepts of that particular class.

I guess what I'm getting at is I agree with the part I emboldened in that the number of tenured professors should be low, low, low. It shoud be a distinct honor being awarded tenure and the teacher should have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt - how you would gauge this, I don't know - that he or she was going to continue to adapt and evolve to the different aspects of the subject matter in which he or she taught.

[dukestheheat]

Read Lord Ash's post and I was instantly reminded of one big reason why we chose to home-school our children from K through 9th (for son Cameron) and 6th (for daughter Emily Dare). The regular school experience has been, for the most part, an overwhelmingly positive experience and both our kids have some super teachers for which we are very thankful!

I really, really do feel sympathy for the many GREAT regular school teachers out there who have to deal with the rest of the world, however, when it comes to just doing their daily jobs! There are so many very crazy, unbalanced parents and students that these professionals must deal with, daily, and I wonder how many are driven away from the profession due to stress?

dth.

[Lord Ash]

Ahhh!

Got another one. Well, two.


FIRST UP!

We have this boy in the fifth grade who is severely disabled. I don't know exactly what he has been diagnosed with, but he is in all special ed, and only joins his class for specials. He can barely communicate, and has a very very difficult time walking... he has had a number of surgeries over the last two years to help, but it is still a chore and a half just to get up a short flight of stairs... I mean a ten minute chore.

This year the fifth grade is taking two field trips, both of which are VERY physical. One is to a nature reserve, where the kids take a two hour hike and also compete in this team-oriented obstacle course that is INSANELY hard. The second is to a major museum, and involves the kids walking the entire day.

So... we need to get a bus specifically for this student (he cannot get on a regular bus, so he needs one of the small ones with an elevator platform) for both trips. This will cost a lot of money, at a time money is TIGHT.

Then, to top it off? He never comes to field trips. He just doesn't show up, because clearly he cannot move well enough.

HOWEVER; we still need to get the bus, because the time we tried not to (a few years ago) the parents threatened to sue the school for discrimination and a load of other things.

Note; the boy has never attended a field trip. EVER. But we need to get the bus, because otherwise the parents will sue.

Oh boy.


NEXT UP!

We have a sixth grade girl who is autistic. She is not diagnosed because the parents absolutely refuse to allow any testing, but she is almost completely unable to communicate, gets completely fixated on random things (she will stand in the hallway staring at her locker for 30 minutes if the teacher doesn't go get her) and is basically unable to do much at all.

However, the parents REFUSE any testing; they simply will not admit anything can be wrong. The school has gone as far as we can in giving help (extra time on tests and the like, stuff that you don't need testing to get) but we cannot get any further.

So her teacher is just stuck with this girl in her class; she tries SO hard to help, but there is just nothing that can be done... she needs to be in a special education classroom. The child needs constantly supervision by the teacher, and all of this time is taken from the other students. And now, to top it off, this girl has to take the state tests with no help or adjustments, because the parents refuse testing. So she literally sat for two and a half hours and did not fill in a single bubble. This will hurt our schools performance, and certainly won't help her any.

So! The latest two fun stories:)

[Lord Ash]

Okay, and now a laugher.

A very bright, yet eccentric student comes up to me in the morning when he is unpacking and says "Mr. So and So, my experiment worked."

"Okay," I say. "What experiment?"

"My moldy bread experiment!" And he holds up a bag of green soggy nasty bread. "I wanted to see where the bread got more moldy; I have two other pieces at my house in different places as a test, so I could see which of the three spots was best for growing mold!"

"Okay," I say. "Sooo... why did you bring that gross moldy piece of science experiment to school? Do you have to show it to a teacher or something?"

"I didn't!" he chirps. "The third spot was my backpack!"

Long pause.

"Okay." I say. "Don't use our classroom as a science lab anymore without my permission. Okay?"

"Sure!" he says. And off he wanders, leaving me to wonder about all the strange smells that come from student backbacks.

[DukieInKansas]

The moral of these three stories - Kids have wonderful minds/imaginations/always keep you guessing. Parents can be a real pain in the you know what some times. :D

Students are lucky to have you as their teacher and advocate. I wish more parents would realize that a team effort is the best approach for the education of their kids and that consideration should be given to the entire class/school, not just their child.

[Lord Ash]

Oh, I adore the kids... sure, they make mistakes, and sure they can sometimes be lazy or mean, but at least you can sort of get them to change if they are, sometimes... but man, the parents!

And I understand why the parents have so much power, I really do... between it being their tax dollars that pay for the school, and the fact that they are ultimately the main guardian for their children... but I am always so surprised when you have a parent of a child who REALLY needs help who seems to view us as the bad guys... I guess there is a psychology behind it, the not wanting to admit something is wrong, as if it somehow makes the parents worse parents?

[DukieInKansas]

Oh, I adore the kids... sure, they make mistakes, and sure they can sometimes be lazy or mean, but at least you can sort of get them to change if they are, sometimes... but man, the parents!

And I understand why the parents have so much power, I really do... between it being their tax dollars that pay for the school, and the fact that they are ultimately the main guardian for their children... but I am always so surprised when you have a parent of a child who REALLY needs help who seems to view us as the bad guys... I guess there is a psychology behind it, the not wanting to admit something is wrong, as if it somehow makes the parents worse parents?

Some parents may fight it because they don't want their child labelled at a young age. (Know a parent where this was true.) On borderline cases, I can see that argument. However, I don't get it on cases that seem to be very clear cut - i.e. child doesn't communicate, etc.

I don't buy the tax dollar argument since it isn't only the parents' tax dollars going to the school. I have no kids but my taxes pay for schools. They should only be considering the good of their child and should be open to the suggestions/ideas of those that are teaching them on a daily basis.

[Lord Ash]

It has been a while!

Thought I would share a recent doozy that would make people shake their heads!




Okay; fourth grade teacher has a girl in her class that has a TERRIBLE nut allergy. All sorts of nuts, and death-is-a-possibility sort of serious.

So, the teacher sends a nice email to all the parents, asking that, because of a very serious allergy in the class, parents please avoid sending their child to school with a snack for snack time that has nuts in it, and thank you all so much for your understanding.

Stinks for those who like peanut butter, but still, better than a dead kid!

So, this one father writes this FEROCIOUS email back! "You don't make the rules for my kid!" and "You are trying to infringe on my kids civil rights!" and "I don't have to listen to your stupid rules, I can send my kid with whatever snack I want!" Keep in mind, this father had to be escorted out of the school by the police a few years back after coming in and threatening a teacher.

The father then tries to get the other parents riled up, and gets one mother (who is already known to be a bit of a nutjob) who also writes a nasty email, this time to the teacher AND the principal, and then promptly sends her son, who sits DIRECTLY across from the girl with the allergy, in the very next day with a snack of...?

Pistachio nuts.

The girl with the allergy promptly has a panic attack as she sees death in a little plastic baggie directly opposite her and goes to the nurse.

And what does the administration do?

Agrees with the crazy dad, because they don't want a huge fight over snacks. Now the girl with the allergy has to go to the nurses office for snacktime.




*sigh*

It blows me away when parents act like selfish children, and when on top of that a school administration doesn't back their teachers up. I would have simply emailed all the parents saying "Mr. So and So recently emailed me about no-nut-snacks being a violation of his son's civil rights, so in order to avoid violating any civil rights there will be no snack in this classroom. Please be sure your child has a nutritious meal in the morning and a healthy, filling lunch. Thank you!."

[DukieInKansas]

It has been a while!

Thought I would share a recent doozy that would make people shake their heads!




Okay; fourth grade teacher has a girl in her class that has a TERRIBLE nut allergy. All sorts of nuts, and death-is-a-possibility sort of serious.

So, the teacher sends a nice email to all the parents, asking that, because of a very serious allergy in the class, parents please avoid sending their child to school with a snack for snack time that has nuts in it, and thank you all so much for your understanding.

Stinks for those who like peanut butter, but still, better than a dead kid!

So, this one father writes this FEROCIOUS email back! "You don't make the rules for my kid!" and "You are trying to infringe on my kids civil rights!" and "I don't have to listen to your stupid rules, I can send my kid with whatever snack I want!" Keep in mind, this father had to be escorted out of the school by the police a few years back after coming in and threatening a teacher.

The father then tries to get the other parents riled up, and gets one mother (who is already known to be a bit of a nutjob) who also writes a nasty email, this time to the teacher AND the principal, and then promptly sends her son, who sits DIRECTLY across from the girl with the allergy, in the very next day with a snack of...?

Pistachio nuts.

The girl with the allergy promptly has a panic attack as she sees death in a little plastic baggie directly opposite her and goes to the nurse.

And what does the administration do?

Agrees with the crazy dad, because they don't want a huge fight over snacks. Now the girl with the allergy has to go to the nurses office for snacktime.




*sigh*

It blows me away when parents act like selfish children, and when on top of that a school administration doesn't back their teachers up. I would have simply emailed all the parents saying "Mr. So and So recently emailed me about no-nut-snacks being a violation of his son's civil rights, so in order to avoid violating any civil rights there will be no snack in this classroom. Please be sure your child has a nutritious meal in the morning and a healthy, filling lunch. Thank you!."

I often think parents should be checked at the door. Some just make life tougher for their kids due to their actions. I'm guessing the boy didn't request pistachio - the dad was just being a jerk. I like your response.

[ncexnyc]

LOL well I've just finished reading all four pages of this thread. It wasn't until I got to page three that I bothered to read the date and realized that this was started months ago.
I guess threads like this are part of the reason I visit this site. Some well thoughtout posts and as always, there are indeed two sides to every story.

[Reisen]

This is an old thread that I haven't looked through in a while, but it seems a good place to point out that DC Mayor Adrian Fentry lost his reelection campaign. This almost certainly spells the end for head of DC schools Michelle Rhee, and her shakeup of the district's long tradition of poorly performing schools.

Sad, really sad. The people have spoken, so I guess we'll give them the status quo back. Probably great news for the fabulous public schools in FFX county (where I own a home), as it makes moving in to the district suddenly far less appealing.

But I'm tired of hearing inner city residents bemoan their children's education options, only to watch them vote out someone who actually tries to do something about it.

[Lord Ash]

This is an old thread that I haven't looked through in a while, but it seems a good place to point out that DC Mayor Adrian Fentry lost his reelection campaign. This almost certainly spells the end for head of DC schools Michelle Rhee, and her shakeup of the district's long tradition of poorly performing schools.

Sad, really sad. The people have spoken, so I guess we'll give them the status quo back. Probably great news for the fabulous public schools in FFX county (where I own a home), as it makes moving in to the district suddenly far less appealing.

But I'm tired of hearing inner city residents bemoan their children's education options, only to watch them vote out someone who actually tries to do something about it.

No no no, this is a TERRIBLE place to discuss politics! Otherwise it will get shut down, and I can't share any more non-political stories of win:)

[InSpades]

To be honest the most startling thing to me about the nut allergy story is that 4th graders have "snack time". I don't ever remember being sent to school with a snack and I certainly would have remembered being given time to eat the snack. I could see maybe for younger kids but 4th graders? What's the need for snack time? Show up to school around 8? Eat lunch at 12? Leave by 3? I don't recall my schedule from back then but it was something along those lines. When is snack time?

The part about parents being unreasonable is pretty much the norm... parents are just like any other slice of the population. If the girl is really that allergic to nuts then she probably shouldn't be around other kids when they eat. Better safe than sorry, no?

[-jk]

To be honest the most startling thing to me about the nut allergy story is that 4th graders have "snack time". I don't ever remember being sent to school with a snack and I certainly would have remembered being given time to eat the snack. I could see maybe for younger kids but 4th graders? What's the need for snack time? Show up to school around 8? Eat lunch at 12? Leave by 3? I don't recall my schedule from back then but it was something along those lines. When is snack time?

The part about parents being unreasonable is pretty much the norm... parents are just like any other slice of the population. If the girl is really that allergic to nuts then she probably shouldn't be around other kids when they eat. Better safe than sorry, no?

After breakfast at 8:00, my then fourth grade daughter had lunch at 10:50 last year. This year, she has lunch at 1:30. Her class had snacks last year around 1:30. This year around 11:00. She's a much better student when she has a snack with that schedule.

-jk

[Lord Ash]

Yeah, snack really depends on the ages and more importantly the lunch times of the kids, as JK points out. The sixth grades in my school don't have snack, but that is partially because school starts at 8:20 and lunch is at noon... they generally are okay.

[rasputin]

To be honest the most startling thing to me about the nut allergy story is that 4th graders have "snack time". I don't ever remember being sent to school with a snack and I certainly would have remembered being given time to eat the snack. I could see maybe for younger kids but 4th graders? What's the need for snack time? Show up to school around 8? Eat lunch at 12? Leave by 3? I don't recall my schedule from back then but it was something along those lines. When is snack time?

The part about parents being unreasonable is pretty much the norm... parents are just like any other slice of the population. If the girl is really that allergic to nuts then she probably shouldn't be around other kids when they eat. Better safe than sorry, no?
As to the last part, put yourself in the girl's place. Shouldn't be around others when they eat? There is a large social component to taking a meal (or a "snack"), and it's inappropriate to exclude a child because she has a condition that may rise to the level of a handicap under the Rehabilitation Act. (A garden-variety peanut allergy doesn't mean there is a handicap, but it can be one if the allergy is very severe.) Most schools will set up a peanut-free table for kids who need one. Sometimes they also have a table-wiping regimen so there's no peanut residue from the last occupant of the table, or even beyond that.

We often see situations with parents who are jerks like the one mentioned in the earlier post. Even more dangerous are well-meaning parents or peers who don't understand that a nut allergy can be so severe that it's life-threatening, and offer a kid a snack or exhort the child to just "try it." The consequences can be tragic.

[InSpades]

As to the last part, put yourself in the girl's place. Shouldn't be around others when they eat? There is a large social component to taking a meal (or a "snack"), and it's inappropriate to exclude a child because she has a condition that may rise to the level of a handicap under the Rehabilitation Act. (A garden-variety peanut allergy doesn't mean there is a handicap, but it can be one if the allergy is very severe.) Most schools will set up a peanut-free table for kids who need one. Sometimes they also have a table-wiping regimen so there's no peanut residue from the last occupant of the table, or even beyond that.

We often see situations with parents who are jerks like the one mentioned in the earlier post. Even more dangerous are well-meaning parents or peers who don't understand that a nut allergy can be so severe that it's life-threatening, and offer a kid a snack or exhort the child to just "try it." The consequences can be tragic.

If I'm in the girl's position I wouldn't want to risk my life on the basis of someone else following a rule they probably don't fully understand the reasoning behind. I'm not saying she should be separated to allow the other people more freedom in their food choices, just that if her allergy is really that severe then I wouldn't want to take the chance. As you point out most people wouldn't realize the potential severity and certainly wouldn't be as diligent about making sure all snacks are nut-free.

As far as accomodating a handicap goes... isn't there a level of reasonableness? Not saying this is beyond reasonable (not bringing in nut-based snacks seems perfectly reasonable) but there is a line you have to draw somewhere. When your condition impacts the lives of others, sometimes the accomodations might mean that you have to make changes instead of other people.

[cf-62]

As to the last part, put yourself in the girl's place. Shouldn't be around others when they eat? There is a large social component to taking a meal (or a "snack"), and it's inappropriate to exclude a child because she has a condition that may rise to the level of a handicap under the Rehabilitation Act. (A garden-variety peanut allergy doesn't mean there is a handicap, but it can be one if the allergy is very severe.) Most schools will set up a peanut-free table for kids who need one. Sometimes they also have a table-wiping regimen so there's no peanut residue from the last occupant of the table, or even beyond that.

We often see situations with parents who are jerks like the one mentioned in the earlier post. Even more dangerous are well-meaning parents or peers who don't understand that a nut allergy can be so severe that it's life-threatening, and offer a kid a snack or exhort the child to just "try it." The consequences can be tragic.

whoa whoa whoa whoa whoaaaaa!

Look, there's no way I could sympathize with a parent who is such as jerk. Nor do I think there was anything wrong with the teacher's actions of requesting students not bring in nuts - and sending nuts in the next day was just awful. What if something HAD happened - and the girl had a serious medical problem - HIS kid could have been emotionally scarred.

That said, I think we need some brakes here. I'm sorry, but a severe allergy does not qualify as a handicap, nor is it APPROACHING a handicap.

It does seem like her parents have created a handicapped situation. Unless the kid was threatening to touch her, or throw a nut at her, I don't understand a PANIC attack for something that she should have obviously dealt with every day of her 9 years.

Unless her parents have completely sheltered her from taking responsibility for avoiding nuts, which WOULD handicap her, because she is unable to iterate her problem and properly deal with it. That's a lot of responsibility for a nine year old, but - again - it's not like a brand new problem - and she has to learn some time.

[Indoor66]

whoa whoa whoa whoa whoaaaaa!

Look, there's no way I could sympathize with a parent who is such as jerk. Nor do I think there was anything wrong with the teacher's actions of requesting students not bring in nuts - and sending nuts in the next day was just awful. What if something HAD happened - and the girl had a serious medical problem - HIS kid could have been emotionally scarred.

That said, I think we need some brakes here. I'm sorry, but a severe allergy does not qualify as a handicap, nor is it APPROACHING a handicap.

It does seem like her parents have created a handicapped situation. Unless the kid was threatening to touch her, or throw a nut at her, I don't understand a PANIC attack for something that she should have obviously dealt with every day of her 9 years.

Unless her parents have completely sheltered her from taking responsibility for avoiding nuts, which WOULD handicap her, because she is unable to iterate her problem and properly deal with it. That's a lot of responsibility for a nine year old, but - again - it's not like a brand new problem - and she has to learn some time.

Today, it seems that personal responsibility is now group responsibility.

[Lord Ash]

A few thoughts:)

First, I do think it is very important to remember you are talking about little kids. Kids are not always thoughtful about what they are doing, don't always pay attention even if they are told something serious, and often do not consider the consequences of their actions.

You have to realize, with very severe nut allergies, kids can have reactions from just TOUCHING a surface that has been touched with peanuts, and even in some cases from inhaling peanut particles. I don't know if this girl was this bad off, but given that, and the severity of the possible reactions, it simply does not pay to take ANY sort of chance.

As a teacher, I look at it simply like this;

The pros of "no nut snacks" is there is little to no chance of this kid dying in class.

The con is that other kids don't get to eat a nut during snack at school that year.

Personally, there is no other thing to consider there.

About the girls panic attack... honestly, I DO kind of understand. As I said, she is a little kid, and if she knows that roughly two or three feet away from her is something that can kill her, something that she knows to be ESPECIALLY aware of, something she has probably been told MANY times will kill her if she eats it (you have got to make it serious so a kid won't sneak a taste, hoping that "Mom or Dad aren't looking" because they don't quite get it) I think that it actually can be understood. The girl actually excused herself to go to the nurse before falling apart, so I suppose she did sort of restrain herself, but still, no child in a classroom should have to deal with that.

As for using it as a learning experience, I do understand where that comes from, since she will likely be faced with nuts in her life, but again... she is a little kid. The people around her are little kids. There is no parent around. If she is going to learn "life lessons" about peanuts, snack time at school is probably not the time for it.

And Indoor, in a school among children away from their parents and their homes it is very much about group responsibility, and group safety. I firmly believe that, and I have a feeling in this sort of case you probably do too.

And yeah, the main point of the story is the totally inappropriate, selfish reaction of the one father and one mother. It baffles me that any parent with any amount of empathy or understanding would EVER do that.

[rasputin]

whoa whoa whoa whoa whoaaaaa!

Look, there's no way I could sympathize with a parent who is such as jerk. Nor do I think there was anything wrong with the teacher's actions of requesting students not bring in nuts - and sending nuts in the next day was just awful. What if something HAD happened - and the girl had a serious medical problem - HIS kid could have been emotionally scarred.

That said, I think we need some brakes here. I'm sorry, but a severe allergy does not qualify as a handicap, nor is it APPROACHING a handicap.

It does seem like her parents have created a handicapped situation. Unless the kid was threatening to touch her, or throw a nut at her, I don't understand a PANIC attack for something that she should have obviously dealt with every day of her 9 years.

Unless her parents have completely sheltered her from taking responsibility for avoiding nuts, which WOULD handicap her, because she is unable to iterate her problem and properly deal with it. That's a lot of responsibility for a nine year old, but - again - it's not like a brand new problem - and she has to learn some time.

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough about the severity of an allergy. Some people have peanut allergies to the point that just casual contact with someone, or breathing in an area where there's peanut dust, can cause a severe reaction, up to, possibly, DEATH. A handicap, under the law, is a physical or mental impairment which substantially limits one or more major life activities (for example, breathing). If it's so severe that it can lead to anaphylactic shock or death, it can be a handicap.

[devil84]

I really like the tactic of sending an email stating that since Mr. So-and-so feels his son's civil rights are restricted, so we won't have any snacks at all, so as not to violate anyone's civil rights. *evil grin* But that wouldn't be very nice.

Besides, given that lunches can happen at fairly unreasonable times (my kids got to high school at 7:25, and lunch was either at 10:25 when some restaurants in the area were still serving breakfast, or at 12:30, just 2 hours before school let out!!), a snack for youngsters does help keep the kids energized and focused.

If I were the teacher, I'd probably send home an email that goes something like this:

You may remember the email I sent home last week regarding the student with the life-threatening nut allergy. I requested that you provide snacks for your child that have no nuts of any kind, to protect the life of this student. A bag of nuts was sent with a student this morning that caused a severe disruption in class, imperiling the allergic child's life. For this reason, we will no longer allow students to bring in their own snacks.

However, young students learn better with a snack, and all students in the classroom should be able to enjoy snack time together. For this reason, I am asking everyone to send in a box of saltines or a box of cheese crackers. Each child will receive 5 saltines or 3 cheese crackers for a snack. You can continue to send drinks every day with your child.

So that we do not get inundated with snacks, it is suggested that you send in your crackers in the month of your child's birth. If your child was born in August, please send them in this month. July birthdays can bring them in January, and June birthdays can bring them in May (a month early).

Thank you Mr. So-and-so and Mrs. Such-and-such. As you have pointed out, it may violate a child's civil rights to restrict the snacks that children bring. In order not to violate anyone's civil rights and to ensure the health of all students, we will implement the snacks of saltines and cheese crackers immediately.

All kids get equal snacks, nobody is socially isolated, nobody worries about anaphylaxis or other symptoms, and the two parents get the attention (perhaps not quite like they wanted, though!). One large drawback is overzealous, sympathetic families not reading the schedule of when to send in the crackers, resulting in far too many to store!

[sue71]

I'm curious if there have been any further developments in the peanut case. Lord Ash?

[Lord Ash]

Nope, nothing yet!

However, I do have another one...

Remember this story, from the very first post?



Or how about the CLEARLY autistic fifth grade girl, who literally stands in one place and stares at the wall and drools, who takes THIRTY MINUTES to unpack her backpack, and who cannot do one single thing in the classroom? Nope! Nothing wrong there! Mom won't even HEAR the word autistic, and won't let the school do anything about it... in fact, she FORCED her out of special education for the one subject she got it and into the regular classroom, where she is failing everything. Come sixth grade, she is dead, and the middle school? Phew, forget it.


Whelp, she is in my class this year, and it is SO sad:( She is clearly, clearly, CLEARLY autistic. I have two autistic cousins, I have had autistic students, and this girl is as autistic as they come. She spends a vast amount of time simply sitting and staring into space. Unless I CONSTANTLY (and I mean that; constant, as in every second) stand beside her and redirect her to her work ever 10 seconds or so, she simply does nothing. When we switch it takes her five extra minutes to get her books together, and when the class comes back, it takes her five more minutes to get back. We do a read aloud, and three weeks into it ("The White Mountains" by John Christopher) she raised her hand and asked what the "tripods" were... and they are basically the essential element of the book. She asks a LOT of questions like this; just very, very, very, very obvious stuff.

So. The parents have fought the school like MAD, getting her out of special ed because they don't want her there. Now she is a mess. I clearly cannot pass her; she barely does ANYTHING, and the work she does is like a first grader... a couple of scrawled words. Now we have reached the point where myself and the other sixth grade teachers are basically gearing up to fight to get the parents to understand she HAS to be classified, for her own good...next year in the middle school she will simply be unable to perform.

And it just stinks, because I know the parents are going to make this a big, messy, time-wasting fight, and maybe try to sue us, and I know the administration does not really want to back the classroom teachers and fight this out because THEY figure it will just cost us money, and they frankly don't care what happens to the kid once they get to middle school if it means avoiding thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars spent, dollars much better spent elsewhere.

And I sit here, and think about all the resources and money and teacher time dedicated to this kid who, frankly, will never really accomplish much, while the gifted and talented program gets gutted...

It is frustrating. There are times I wish (I understand there are big issues with it) that parents had a little LESS control and authority over their own kids and over their schools.

[sue71]

Is there any pressure on her teachers, you included, to pass her when she clearly isn't performing at the required level?

Edit: Pressure from the school/administration, NOT the parents.

[Lord Ash]

Only in that failing her would result in the parents going crazy and would cause problems for the school:(

[weezie]

LA, I don't want to throw any gasoline on the fire but where is your principal or school superintendent in all this?
Of course, I don't know squat about teaching but if this sad case of a child has been passed for 5-6 years, somebody had to approve grade advancements? Is there no one in your district representation with any sense of the waste you are witnessing?

[Lord Ash]

The principal is not really willing to start a long war with parents who have already fought us and cost us money and time in the past. The threat of lawsuits is constant, and with the budget woes we are already facing the district would be in a LOT of trouble with a big law suit. The way they figure is that the only person who will suffer, in the long run, for the parents being idiots is the parents and kid themselves.

[DukieInKansas]

The principal is not really willing to start a long war with parents who have already fought us and cost us money and time in the past. The threat of lawsuits is constant, and with the budget woes we are already facing the district would be in a LOT of trouble with a big law suit. The way they figure is that the only person who will suffer, in the long run, for the parents being idiots is the parents and kid themselves.

I can't imagine the frustration you, the other teachers, the administration, and parents of other children must be facing. I'm sending mental shin kicks to the parents of this young lady that they wake up and smell the roses and start actually doing the best thing for their daughter. I wonder what their daughter's doctor says about her condition when they meet.

[cf-62]

The principal is not really willing to start a long war with parents who have already fought us and cost us money and time in the past. The threat of lawsuits is constant, and with the budget woes we are already facing the district would be in a LOT of trouble with a big law suit. The way they figure is that the only person who will suffer, in the long run, for the parents being idiots is the parents and kid themselves.

<Evil logician>If you examine the situation logically, it IS sad - tragic even, but it shouldn't be frustrating.

It appears that there is no possible way this girl will be put in a situation where she can learn, be productive, and grow intellectually.

In fact, you've stated that even with you focusing on her to do her work "every second" that the work is commensurate with a 6 year old.

Thus, the logical thing to do is make sure that the situation doesn't impact the other kids in the class - and don't spend any more extra time with her.

Put her in a place where she won't be disruptive, and stop focusing your efforts on making sure she's doing the work.

Her parents CAN'T sue the school for failure to give their special kid extra care because
A) The school already has something for that
B) They refuse to use it

Thus, you get to focus your attention on all your kids, the parents get their child mainstreamed, and there's no fight.

Stinks for the little girl, but the cause is lost anyway. You still have decades of battles left in public schools. Don't bash your head in beating it against the wall on this one.

The parents are to blame. Let them sleep in the bed that they made.
</Evil logician>

[weezie]

Yeah, but a child like that is so distracting and disruptive in a classroom. The other kids are just that, kids! They might not behave very well if the handicapped girl starts being more uncontrollable.
The best power hand in the situation belongs to other parents of students in that room. But, then again, who's got the time or energy to get them rolling, unless they see the effects on their own children.
Sorry LA, looks like a very long and grueling year for you. Really sorry.:(

[Lord Ash]

Hey all

Weez, thankfully she is not disruptive at all. The only big downside is that she simply is not getting the skills she needs, skills she would get in a one on one or small group, specialized setting.

As for not spending time with her, that is unfortunately where we are headed. I simply cannot dedicate such a huge percentage of my time to a student who will not proportionally benefit from it. But that kills me, because I hate seeing a kid sitting there not doing anything.

And unfortunately, the parents CAN sue. They might not WIN, but the resources a lawsuit would tie up are needed elsewhere:( Often, it isn't the worry of LOSING a lawsuit; it is simply a lawsuit being undertaken!

Thankfully my class is largely bright and kind and responsible, and so far they seem great:)

[DukieInKansas]

I would think that for a teacher, not being able to reach a child has to be extremely difficult. For those moments that you get frustrated by the way this student is being cheated out of the help she needs (due to no fault of your own), please remember the difference you made in so many lives.

[Lid]

Interesting article today on cnn.com about bullying via peanuts... (http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/09/28/food.allergy.bullying/index.html?hpt=T2)

[Lord Ash]

Very, very interesting. Schools are an interesting place, because it is very few adults who are not related to the children who are responsible for all of them. It is a place of real group responsibility. Thanks for the article, Lid!

Just an update on my autistic girl; we were reviewing her paperwork, and yikes. I am required to stand beside her to redirect her with non-verbal cues when she goes off topic, to write all directions on the board, review them orally, and write them on her paper, to keep a timer on a nearby desk (but not HER desk) to help her understand how much time she has, check her homework planner and initial assignments to ensure they are written correctly, give her extra time to complete tests and assignments, and move her seat as needed. Yet, there is no problem.

And, if I fail to do this stuff, I can personally be sued for negligence.

I honestly wonder sometimes if parents understand how much of our resources go towards special education or support of students who should be in special ed.

[DukieInKansas]

What are the chances you could get extra help in the classroom. Due to budget constraints, I assume a para-professional is out. Any parent volunteers? Expecially hers?

Have her parents ever observed her in a classroom setting to see how little she gets?

[sue71]

What are the chances you could get extra help in the classroom. Due to budget constraints, I assume a para-professional is out. Any parent volunteers? Expecially hers?

Have her parents ever observed her in a classroom setting to see how little she gets?

Let's see... the cost of an assistant in the classroom vs the cost of a lawsuit. The school/district really won't find a way to foot the bill for an assistant? Just trying to continue LA's train of thought...

[DukieInKansas]

Perhaps the other parents should be encouraged to spend a day in the classroom so they see how much of your attention is taken away from their kids and focused on her. They could try to pressure the young lady's parents to do the right thing for her.

[cf-62]

Interesting article today on cnn.com about bullying via peanuts... (http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/09/28/food.allergy.bullying/index.html?hpt=T2)

That was a great article. I would have given the "study" more credence if they had compared peanuts to peanuts.

Instead, they skewed their numbers (intentionally, no doubt) by
A) interviewing parents, as opposed to the kids
B) Comparing "bullying" to "bullying, teasing, or harassment."

While bullying and harassment seem pretty close to me, there are LOTS of grey areas of teasing. In fact, one quoe from the allergymoms.com lady pointed out that she didn't know if it was good-natured teasing or bullying.

This is why I don't trust special interest groups, especially when they have a statistical study. I know too much about statistics to know I could take the same data, hypothesize the exact opposite conclusion and prove it.

[cf-62]

Very, very interesting. Schools are an interesting place, because it is very few adults who are not related to the children who are responsible for all of them. It is a place of real group responsibility. Thanks for the article, Lid!

Just an update on my autistic girl; we were reviewing her paperwork, and yikes. I am required to stand beside her to redirect her with non-verbal cues when she goes off topic, to write all directions on the board, review them orally, and write them on her paper, to keep a timer on a nearby desk (but not HER desk) to help her understand how much time she has, check her homework planner and initial assignments to ensure they are written correctly, give her extra time to complete tests and assignments, and move her seat as needed. Yet, there is no problem.

And, if I fail to do this stuff, I can personally be sued for negligence.

I honestly wonder sometimes if parents understand how much of our resources go towards special education or support of students who should be in special ed.

Hmmm, IANAL, but it seems to me that the corporate veil would prevail here. If not, then you should consider specialized legal insurance for teachers - which is what I took out when I became a board member for my HOA. Since it's a volunteer organization, there's no corporate veil protection, but my HOA Director's insurance would have covered me if anyone had personally sued me.

Seriously, though, the corporate veil should apply. Be careful, though. If you broke a law as an IBM employee, IBM would retro your employment termination back to the date of the alleged violation, essentially removing the corporate veil. You should discuss with a union attorney, if possible. Otherwise, find somebody here who doesn't preface their posts with IANAL.

Because seriously, there's no way you should be personally open to litigation.

[DukieInKansas]

Wouldn't being a teacher be like other licensed professions and the individual is open to legal action? The plaintiff may not be able to collect damages from you, but they could cause the expense of preparing to defend a lawsuit.

Obviously, IANAL but the above seems logical to me - which probably means it's wrong. ;) However, the insurance you recommend is worth consideration. It may be provided as part of union dues.

[cf-62]

Wouldn't being a teacher be like other licensed professions and the individual is open to legal action? The plaintiff may not be able to collect damages from you, but they could cause the expense of preparing to defend a lawsuit.

Obviously, IANAL but the above seems logical to me - which probably means it's wrong. ;) However, the insurance you recommend is worth consideration. It may be provided as part of union dues.

Again, IANAL, but corporate veil takes precendence over "license." The teacher doesn't work for me - or you - either as an employee, contractor, or service provider. The teacher is an employee of the School System (county or state). They work for the school board, NOT the parents - or you and me.

In contrast, if I hire a contractor to finish my basement, I can sue him for negligence, even if he's incorporated.

Note, though, that I can't sue personally for $$ if the company owes money.

If teachers were independent contractors licensed and compensated as a co-op of parents, then MAYYYYYYBE there's a cause for action.

One more note. It seemed like a favorite hobby of some of my friends' parents in New York to get teachers fired. They took down two teachers at our junior high in NY - and 2 more in our Raleigh high school.

[DukieInKansas]

Again, IANAL, but corporate veil takes precendence over "license." The teacher doesn't work for me - or you - either as an employee, contractor, or service provider. The teacher is an employee of the School System (county or state). They work for the school board, NOT the parents - or you and me.

In contrast, if I hire a contractor to finish my basement, I can sue him for negligence, even if he's incorporated.

Note, though, that I can't sue personally for $$ if the company owes money.

If teachers were independent contractors licensed and compensated as a co-op of parents, then MAYYYYYYBE there's a cause for action.

One more note. It seemed like a favorite hobby of some of my friends' parents in New York to get teachers fired. They took down two teachers at our junior high in NY - and 2 more in our Raleigh high school.

Perhaps a lawyer can chime in on this thread hijack. I thought the corporate veil kept plaintiffs from going after the assets of the owners of the corporation. So, if an employee does something that causes a lawsuit, the employee and company can be sued but any judgement against the corporation could only be paid from corporate funds. They couldn't go after the shareholders personal assets to get the funds.

I hope the family friends got rid of bad apples when they got teachers fired.

[cf-62]

Perhaps a lawyer can chime in on this thread hijack. I thought the corporate veil kept plaintiffs from going after the assets of the owners of the corporation. So, if an employee does something that causes a lawsuit, the employee and company can be sued but any judgement against the corporation could only be paid from corporate funds. They couldn't go after the shareholders personal assets to get the funds.

I hope the family friends got rid of bad apples when they got teachers fired.

I should have been a little more explicit. The "hobby" was getting teachers fired - because they ticked off their kids - or the parents, not because they were bad. In fact, I know the two teachers in NY were very good teachers that happened to commit the egregious crime of criticizing their boys.

I believe the conflicts with the teachers in Raleigh were over grades (in 10th grade).

[DukieInKansas]

I should have been a little more explicit. The "hobby" was getting teachers fired - because they ticked off their kids - or the parents, not because they were bad. In fact, I know the two teachers in NY were very good teachers that happened to commit the egregious crime of criticizing their boys.

I believe the conflicts with the teachers in Raleigh were over grades (in 10th grade).

Wow. I don't think that is, ultimately, good for their kids. Thanks for the clarification.

Teachers have way more headaches and hassles than most people know. Sometimes, parents should be checked at the door and not allowed to interfer.

[Lord Ash]

Hey guys!

A few things;

I don't know about the legal issues; however, I do know that teachers face a wide range of problems that non-public employees do not. The example I gave above has been very clearly spelled out for us; we can be personally sued for not following the plan. Teachers can also be fired for things such as posting negative political comments on Facebook and other bits; apparently we do NOT have first amendment rights, as we give them up by becoming teachers and "role models." It is fairly insane.

Here is another one, speaking of parents...

A kindergartener goes home and tells his mom that the teacher did not allow him to go to the bathroom for the entire day and didn't let him talk the entire day. Keep in mind, at that age you can literally watch a kid punch another kid, say "Why did you do that?" and the kid will respond "I didn't do anything," even if you SAY "I watched you do it."

So, what does mom do? Does she send a nice email to the teacher asking what happened? Nope; she takes her five year old seriously and sends an email to the teacher, CCing the principal and the superintendent, demanding to know how she can come and sit in the class to observe for the week.

Oh, and we also had the fifth grader who failed a math test, and whose dad promptly wrote the teacher an email that said "So and so will be retaking his math test. He will need three days to prepare. He will be ready on Friday."

Seriously?

[DukieInKansas]

Hey guys!

A few things;

I don't know about the legal issues; however, I do know that teachers face a wide range of problems that non-public employees do not. The example I gave above has been very clearly spelled out for us; we can be personally sued for not following the plan. Teachers can also be fired for things such as posting negative political comments on Facebook and other bits; apparently we do NOT have first amendment rights, as we give them up by becoming teachers and "role models." It is fairly insane.

Here is another one, speaking of parents...

A kindergartener goes home and tells his mom that the teacher did not allow him to go to the bathroom for the entire day and didn't let him talk the entire day. Keep in mind, at that age you can literally watch a kid punch another kid, say "Why did you do that?" and the kid will respond "I didn't do anything," even if you SAY "I watched you do it."

So, what does mom do? Does she send a nice email to the teacher asking what happened? Nope; she takes her five year old seriously and sends an email to the teacher, CCing the principal and the superintendent, demanding to know how she can come and sit in the class to observe for the week.

Oh, and we also had the fifth grader who failed a math test, and whose dad promptly wrote the teacher an email that said "So and so will be retaking his math test. He will need three days to prepare. He will be ready on Friday."

Seriously?

You are an angel for teaching our future. I don't understand some parents. (easy for a childless person to say, I know.) How do they think they are helping their kids through these actions? I'm old and grew up in the time when the teacher was correct unless the child could prove otherwise. Getting in trouble at school was the least of our worries - the disappointment from parents when we got home was much worse than any trip to the principal's office.

Did the 5th grader get to take the test again?

[sue71]

Oh, and we also had the fifth grader who failed a math test, and whose dad promptly wrote the teacher an email that said "So and so will be retaking his math test. He will need three days to prepare. He will be ready on Friday."

Seriously?

That's what I thought- Seriously? If I failed a math test, I got in trouble. There was NO WAY my parents would campaign, much less demand that I retake it on a schedule they set.

[Highlander]

That's what I thought- Seriously? If I failed a math test, I got in trouble. There was NO WAY my parents would campaign, much less demand that I retake it on a schedule they set.

Ha. Today, if a kid fails a test, he/she has to be given a chance to retake or do corrections (typically for half the points he/she missed). If a teacher gets two papers that are identical, the teacher cannot punish the students for cheating unless they PERSONALLY saw them cheat or can prove it. Otherwise they have to either make everyone do the assignment over or let it go. Oh, and makeup work? You can set a timeline for when it's required to be submitted, but students know that teachers don't enforce those.

In my wife's school, if a student gets a 69 for the year, they are required to pass them as it is "close enough" to a 70 to pass. They have to get a 68 to truly fail.

Oh, and failing just means they have to do a couple days of 'remediation' on the subject over the summer before they get credit.

The sad part is, this is considered the norm nowadays.

[cato]

Teachers can also be fired for things such as posting negative political comments on Facebook and other bits; apparently we do NOT have first amendment rights, as we give them up by becoming teachers and "role models." It is fairly insane.

That is nothing unique to teachers. Employees in all types of professions can be fired based on what they say in public forums (DBR included). If your complaint is that teachers are held to a higher standard than some other professions, well, is that particularly surprising? It seems eminently reasonable that parents expect the adults who spend so much unsupervised time with their kids to demonstrate a certain level of judgment.

As for giving up your First Amendment rights, what rights do you think you are giving up? The First Amendment does not protect people from the consequences of their speech. It simply ensures that they have enough rhetorical rope to hang themselves.

[cato]

Perhaps a lawyer can chime in on this thread hijack. I thought the corporate veil kept plaintiffs from going after the assets of the owners of the corporation.

That is correct. The "corporate veil" refers to the limited liability nature of certain legal entities (including corporations and limited liability companies). As a general rule, the owners of such an entity are not liable for the debts and obligations of the entity. An attempt to hold the owners directly liable for the debts and obligations of the entity is an attempt to "pierce the corporate veil".


So, if an employee does something that causes a lawsuit, the employee and company can be sued but any judgement against the corporation could only be paid from corporate funds.

Also, generally correct, with lots of details on when the employee, the employer or both are liable. But it is worth pointing out the implicit distinction you make between being sued and who the judgment can be enforced against: just about anyone involved can be sued, and whether or not there is any basis for liability, that suit can be quite a PIA to defend.

[Lord Ash]

Oh man, get ready for this one:

One teacher in my school, while the kids were working quietly on an assignment on their own, spent FOUR MINUTES yesterday looking at BASKETBALL news on the internet because apparently some high school kid decided to play basketball at their old college.






Waittasecond...

:)

[DukieInKansas]

Oh man, get ready for this one:

One teacher in my school, while the kids were working quietly on an assignment on their own, spent FOUR MINUTES yesterday looking at BASKETBALL news on the internet because apparently some high school kid decided to play basketball at their old college.






Waittasecond...

:)

The teacher did what?!?!? I hope the teacher was able to stifle the shouts of joy so that the kids weren't disturbed. ;)

[Lord Ash]

The Spanish teacher who was actually teaching at that time DID ask the other teacher why he was grinning from ear to ear. The same question was asked at lunch. But yes, screams of joy and "SUCK IT, ROY!!!" were stifled until said teacher was alone in his car driving home after school:)

[DukieInKansas]

The Spanish teacher who was actually teaching at that time DID ask the other teacher why he was grinning from ear to ear. The same question was asked at lunch. But yes, screams of joy and "SUCK IT, ROY!!!" were stifled until said teacher was alone in his car driving home after school:)

It is always good when the teacher can show some restraint. :D

[Deslok]

And then of course, there are teachers who teach with a projector and smartboard every day. And come March, he somehow finds a way to zip through the lesson in record time to... erm... allow the students more time to work in groups/independently on problems to practice the material. All while he just ensures that the projector continues to work properly by streaming March Madness on Demand onto the screen(fortunately, he works for a principal who completely understands his obsession... the year of the VCU loss - ugh - he popped his head in and all the students thought the teacher was about to get in trouble, but no, he popped in to ask what the score was).

Deslok

[weezie]

there are teachers who...ensures that the projector continues to work properly by streaming March Madness on Demand onto the screen
Deslok

Sounds like a candidate for "Teacher of the Year"

[Jim3k]

As for the child who is autistic, is there a way that the county's/state's child protective services can be brought to bear on the parents? It seems to me that a decent argument can be made that these parents are neglecting their child to his/her detriment.

I admit I dunno what the rules are for CPS to become involved in this type of neglect, and I suspect that there are some school district political issues in taking such a step. (Who makes the complaint? Can a complaint be made by another parent? The principal? A teacher on his own? What about the teacher's union? The PTA? School nurse?) Someone must be out there.

BTW, I wouldn't get too concerned about a suit. I expect that even if the district is operating on a tight budget, it has insurance to cover this sort of thing. Maybe the County or State would defend it as well if there is no insurance. Heck, maybe the insurance company has a loss protection expert to call upon.

[cf-62]

As for the child who is autistic, is there a way that the county's/state's child protective services can be brought to bear on the parents? It seems to me that a decent argument can be made that these parents are neglecting their child to his/her detriment.

I admit I dunno what the rules are for CPS to become involved in this type of neglect, and I suspect that there are some school district political issues in taking such a step. (Who makes the complaint? Can a complaint be made by another parent? The principal? A teacher on his own? What about the teacher's union? The PTA? School nurse?) Someone must be out there.

BTW, I wouldn't get too concerned about a suit. I expect that even if the district is operating on a tight budget, it has insurance to cover this sort of thing. Maybe the County or State would defend it as well if there is no insurance. Heck, maybe the insurance company has a loss protection expert to call upon.

Is this really neglect? Mis-guided - absolutely. But neglect to demand a child be mainstreamed even if it isn't in the child's best learning interest?

Every situation is different, but the autistic community looks at Temple Grandin as an inspirational example of not giving into professional educators' desires to only teach autistic kids in special ed classes.

[Lord Ash]

Got two more winners from the world of education:(

First up... an autistic girl a grade below the one I teach at. This student is a severe case... she has wet herself in class because she does not understand she has to use the bathroom, does not really have much verbal communication, literally gets up and runs out of the room when she sees kids walking past... she cannot really read or write, and cannot really retain any information beyond a minute or two.

Now, the teachers have LONG maintained she is clearly in the wrong environment. She is not learning any of the basic social skills that she will need going forward in life. She really should be in an autistic program where she gets one on one aid, and help with the skills she needs.

The parents, however, have fought for YEARS to keep her in general ed where they can (she goes to a special ed classroom for reading, writing, and math; there is no special ed for science or social studies, so she comes to class for that) and have sued the school on two occasions to keep her there. Now they are getting upset because she doesn't seem to understand the social studies and science they are doing in class... that she cannot explain how clouds are formed, or how light is refracted, or how the French and Indian War helped cause the American Revolution.

Her teacher is SO frustrated. The teacher has said, a number of times, that OBVIOUSLY she will not be able to do the social studies or science; she cannot read, she cannot focus, she cannot retain... what do they expect? Yet the parents are raising a HUGE stink over this, and so the higher-ups (the caseworker and some others) are coming in and asking questions, and even expressing some surprise at how bad things are... despite the fact that teachers have been saying for YEARS that this student is absolutely and completely in the wrong place. Now, in an attempt to please the parents, they are having the teacher, when she writes notes on the board, ALSO write notes on a single piece of paper, and then stand in front of the girl and, using a piece of paper, to mask all but one word at a time, so that the girl can write them down. Seriously? THIS is a good use of the teachers time? THIS is a good use of the STUDENTS time?! And keep in mind that the parents even fought this at first, because they were afraid that it made the girl "stand out" from her classmates... they wanted some mystical modification that would be unnoticeable. As if all of the other issues she faces don't make her stand out.

And then the parents have complained that the classroom teacher isn't doing enough to help this girl make friends. Uhmmm... there is NOTHING this classroom teacher can do to help that. Nothing. She wets herself, she screams, she jumps up and runs around, she cannot have a conversation... the place she COULD get help with social skills would be an autistic-specialized classroom... which the parents fight against tooth and nail. What on earth are they expecting?

*sigh*

And then another one... my wife, an elementary school counselor, has two young African American boys who have come to her school, a predominantly white, upper upper class school. The boys were removed from their mothers care (drug use) and dad has never been in the picture; they are currently under the care of another family member.

Now, the boys are a MESS. The older of the two (who is about 8) is wild; he curses, hits other kids, runs out of the classroom, and is disrespectful like you wouldn't believe. He speaks often of whores, drugs, sex, and a RAFT of other things no 7 or 8 year old should know about, talks about having seen being doing drugs and fighting and shooting each other, and literally curses every other word. He was taken for an outside psych eval after the caretaker fought it for a YEAR (only a threat of legal action got her to do it) who found that the child was deeply disturbed... I don't remember the term, but my wife said that it was the "youth" version of being a sociopath. His IQ tests down in the low 70s. The younger boy is heading that same way; he assaulted two different children, attacked a teacher, is no longer allowed to use the bathroom alone because he goes on the floor, and curses and behaves in a way that is REALLY having a dramatic impact on the other kids in his class.

BOTH of these boys have had a dramatic impact on the school; the are known by EVERYONE, as they have had run-ins with a wide range of kids, from fistfights with upper grade boys to sexual harassment of second grade girls (I believe the quote was "Yo bit__hes, I'm grabbing your titties!") Other parents have complained (and now some are beginning to threaten legal action) as their eight year olds come home with these bizarre stories and repeating some of the HORRIBLE language that they are learning.

This entire time the family member who is in charge of them has FOUGHT... TOOTH AND NAIL... to have ANYTHING done. She has claimed the school and the district are just being racist, that it is picking on them just because they are black, that they simply don't know how to treat a black child... and now, at the meeting where after a year of my wifes work the family member FINALLY came in to (apparently) sign the paperwork to get them classified as special ed so they can get some serious, individual attention and help... nope, instead she informs the school she has hired a lawyer and is suing the district for racial discrimination. Which will, of course, cost the district (which just cut all sports and art programs in the middle school and made the high school sports a pay-to-play program, and went through MASSIVE layoffs) even more money.

Two perfect, and common, examples of waste. Two examples of parents/adults (who obviously SHOULD have a lot of say in their childrens' educations) simply making the job of the schools impossible, of expecting more than can possibly be given. So many issues, from parents and even from administrators in the schools themselves. It is so very frustrating.


It sounds strange, but I hope these stories help folks who otherwise have no exposure to this stuff understand why schools struggle often SO mightily. These are just random snippets of stories the likes of which happen CONSTANTLY, in every school.

[InSpades]

To me this seems like a problem with the system more than anything else. Obviously the parents/guardians are behaving horribly but that almost seems inevitable. You are going to get crazy parents at some point. The system should be better designed to handle these cases. If I was a parent and my child was in class with kids behaving how you describe those boys behaving then I would be throwing a fit too. I wouldn't want my child at risk of abuse from out of control kids (or learning things that kids that age should never know). The system seems to give parents too much control over where their kids are taught to the detriment of the rest of the kids.

[DukeUsul]

I don't remember the term, but my wife said that it was the "youth" version of being a sociopath.

Probably one of Oppositional Defiant Disorder and/or Conduct Disorder.

I am not a psychologist, but I did stay at a... well I'm married to one.

ETA: My wife is a school psychologist and I hear a lot of stories like yours. And it seems to me, from the outside looking in, that the biggest driver seems to be litigation. Parents demand what they want (either demanding way more services than the school is able to provide or else insisting that nothing is wrong and nothing should be done) and the school administrators will bend and bend and bend to try to avoid a lawsuit.

[Channing]

my wife, a teacher, just sent me this - she said it sums up her frustrations pretty well:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVXhA_hs2J8

[cf-62]

Probably one of Oppositional Defiant Disorder and/or Conduct Disorder.

I am not a psychologist, but I did stay at a... well I'm married to one.

ETA: My wife is a school psychologist and I hear a lot of stories like yours. And it seems to me, from the outside looking in, that the biggest driver seems to be litigation. Parents demand what they want (either demanding way more services than the school is able to provide or else insisting that nothing is wrong and nothing should be done) and the school administrators will bend and bend and bend to try to avoid a lawsuit.

So I have had the chance to see the continuous degradation of our public schools through my mom, a junior high language arts teacher that retired this year. How bad is it? So bad that she started smoking again after quitting for over a decade.

But it's interesting to study the attitudes of the students and parents over the years - and compare to the same attitude adjustments in college students.

Now I am not devoid of a strategic parent intervention here and there. There were a few - questionable - parking tickets in school. Funny how fast the bursar's office took those off when mom called - even though they wouldn't even discuss that possibility with me.

But it was in grad school when I came across a new breed of student - the "entitled" student. When having trouble in class, it was - whoop, right to the director's office - "I'm not getting what I paid for." The instructor has to change his/her ways to match my/our learning needs.

This "I'm a customer" attitude is great when it comes to things like environment, amenities, student life, etc. - but when it gets in the way of taking responsibility for what YOUR JOB IS - go to class, study, pass tests - it's an issue.

That sense of entitlement is why you get so many litigious situations in public schools today, whether in Wake County because of year round curricula - or in NJ from parents that refuse to have their children tested for autism.

It's the "I'm a customer - and the customer is always right!" mentality that has removed the authority from our teachers. What's really funny is that parental extremes on both ends of the spectrum (entitlement and apathy) - together - are what will ultimately destroy the US education system.

And make no mistake - within 10 years, our public schools (as we know them) will be gone. There are too many challenges (especially budget) to overcome for the US to continue to dumb down curriculum, pander to every whiny special interest group, and grant TOOOOO much power to parents - through the form of tort and the courts.

[Lord Ash]

my wife, a teacher, just sent me this - she said it sums up her frustrations pretty well:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVXhA_hs2J8

Bwah hah hah hah! Okay, that was funny as hell... the administrator is PERFECT. It often feels like, as a classroom teacher, you are battling demanding, entitled, unrealistic parents on one side and out-of-touch administrators who say things like "Let's make sure there is lots of technology written into every part of the curriculum!" while we struggle to be able to check email regularly and have only enough working laptops for 6 kids out of the entire 6th grade.

DukeUsul, it was conduct disorder, and one other thing which I cannot recall the name of. It always made me nervous how my wife described the kid... she said he could be very, very charming, and then INSTANTLY go into a fit and attack someone. Very unnerving.

And yes, public education is a lot of trouble... and let's not even bring up the fact that we have about four years left to ensure that EVERY SINGLE CHILD is able to pass the state tests... tests which were redesigned in NJ because someone thought they were too easy, and then promptly half of the kids in Bergen County failed. Because NOTHING proves success like the most unrealistic goal ever conceived.

*sigh*

Back to report cards!

[DukeUsul]

Makes me want to homeschool.

[cf-62]

Bwah hah hah hah! Okay, that was funny as hell... the administrator is PERFECT. It often feels like, as a classroom teacher, you are battling demanding, entitled, unrealistic parents on one side and out-of-touch administrators who say things like "Let's make sure there is lots of technology written into every part of the curriculum!" while we struggle to be able to check email regularly and have only enough working laptops for 6 kids out of the entire 6th grade.

DukeUsul, it was conduct disorder, and one other thing which I cannot recall the name of. It always made me nervous how my wife described the kid... she said he could be very, very charming, and then INSTANTLY go into a fit and attack someone. Very unnerving.

And yes, public education is a lot of trouble... and let's not even bring up the fact that we have about four years left to ensure that EVERY SINGLE CHILD is able to pass the state tests... tests which were redesigned in NJ because someone thought they were too easy, and then promptly half of the kids in Bergen County failed. Because NOTHING proves success like the most unrealistic goal ever conceived.

*sigh*

Back to report cards!

I think one of the more amusing aspects of the federal intervention in public schools - with NCLB programs, etc. - is the complete lack of thought (on both sides of the aisle) to the actions that these bills will create - and the ultimate end game that will result.

Why is this funny? Because politics, by definition, is all about using incentives to get desired actions, but neither party's politicians seems even remotely able to look at a law / program / goal and understand the actions and results it will end up creating.

Take NCLB. At least to me, it's obvious that the statutes of the program will mean that you have 12, 13, 15, 18 year-olds that can't read or write at the appropriate level because the government penalized holding kids back.

Of COURSE they'll just get passed on, especially when younger, until it's too late to effect any change.

[Lord Ash]

Yeah, I do want to be careful discussing politics (which is how the details of NCLB is probably viewed) but I am just baffled by this idea that we can have a demanding test that somehow every single student will pass. The complete and utter lack of logic leaves me completely dumbfounded. That is simply not the way the world works, ESPECIALLY when the world you are working with is basically every child in America, from the wealthiest, tutor-helped child to the poorest kid who comes to school hungry and goes home to drugs and violence.

[cf-62]

I agree some may see NCLB discussions as politics, which is why I stopped at one criticism, and it's aimed at "washington" in general, not a particular party or president.

I personally find absolutes in ranking, grading, or managing ANY system, including schools, to essentially remove any decision making at all.

And requiring EVERY child to be at a certain level, even though their own intelligence, their support from home, where they USED to live, etc. all plays as much of a factor as "the teacher" -- to be ludicrous.

And especially when parents won't let their special kids be tested and moved out of mainstream classes.

[allenmurray]

It is even more difficult when you factor in that 50% of all American children are below average . . .

[Lord Ash]

It is even more difficult when you factor in that 50% of all American children are below average . . .

How dare you! ALL of our children are exception, and none are below average... and CERTAINLY not a massive FIFTY PERCENT!

Imagine that... 50 percent of kids below average. Ridiculous.

I assume you are a George Carlin fan, btw?:)

[InSpades]

It is even more difficult when you factor in that 50% of all American children are below average . . .

It's probably more than 50% (depening on how you want to define average). I think we had this discussion before though...

[tecumseh]

It is even more difficult when you factor in that 50% of all American children are below average . . .

Not in Lake Wobagon where all the kids are above average

[tecumseh]

The problem runs deeper than just education. The whole American way of celebrating the individual and individualism often at the expense of the community should be called into question.

[Lord Ash]

*sigh*

Here is the latest from the frustrating front of education!:D

So, I have one student... he is of average (at best) intelligence... a nice boy, a bit out of place... very good with younger kids... FANTASTICALLY immature, however; he simply avoids work and then thinks no one will notice. He doesn't study, doesn't work hard at ALL (barely works, to be frank) and then cries when he fails the tests.

This has been pretty routine over the years. Mom comes off as tough, but I wonder if she is as tough at home... he seems VERY babied.

So we had our Parent-Teacher conferences this year. I require the kids to attend and do a presentation for the me and the parents about their year. We then discuss their goals (which they take notes on) and where they need to improve.

For this student, it was ALL about taking responsibility. I spoke with him and his parents at length at it, although he seemed very "checked out;" I had to constantly remind him to look at me while I was talking, and he kept bursting out into tears. Silly stuff for a sixth grader.

SO!

He comes in about two weeks after conferences with this letter about being gone for a week for a football tournament in Florida. I have to sign it. I tell him "There is NO way I am signing this unless you tell me you understand that you have to still do the work while you are gone, and be ready for a test when you return." He swore he would. We reviewed the assignments he had to do, and a bit about what the test would cover. I signed the letter, and emailed Mom to tell her what his responsibilities were.

He comes back, and just STARES at the test. Tears flowing. I give him extra time. No help; failed.

I speak with him, and he says he knew about the test... he just didn't study. I tell him he has ONE evening to review the material again and I'll let him look at the test again, as he DID miss some lecture time. I show him the areas that can help him study, I make sure he understands there are review questions in the book he can do. I give him a note to take home to Mom explaining the situation.

He comes in... and bombs. Again. Failed. Says he lost the note, but he told Mom he was taking it again. Spoke with Mom, she had no idea. Didn't seem too upset.

Okay. What in the hell am I supposed to do? I am simply failing him... there comes a time you need to step up and take some responsibility, and until he shows ANY desire to do that, I will not bend over backwards for him.

*sigh*

SO frustrating.

[weezie]

Fail him, Ash.
Seriously, I began to wonder if you were talking about my (now adult) son when you began. I was plenty tough, but there are just some kids who deserve a kick in the pants.

No way any 6th grader needs to be going to a week long football tournament. I'll venture that the folks had a vacation planned (tell me it was near Orlando) and cloaked it in some "very important" sporting event, thereby giving young Dopey a reason to feel special.

Smells fishy. Back up your paperwork on this kid and prepare for a parental blasting but he's got to suffer the consequences.

And yes, my son still drives me absolutely insane but he's now on his own and dealing with his own issues.

[Highlander]

Heard this from my wife last night. The state of NC is proposing an across the board pay cut for teachers next year of a couple of percentage points. I get that, budget being what it is and all. Not fun, but governments are out of $ and education salaries are probably the single biggest line item on the budget. Keep in mind that they suspended raises last year as well.

Here's where it gets crazy. For the past 20+ years, teachers have been given a 10% raise in pay if they earned a Master's degree in their field, and another 10% if they are certified by the National Boards. Both take a minimum of a year to qualify for, and all expenses are paid out of pocket by the teacher. Average starting salary for a teacher in NC is around $30K/yr. The proposed budget also calls for doing away with these merit based incentives for secondary degrees.

I have a big issue with this. Many of these people went and got these degrees specifically for the pay increase so they could make a halfway decent wage to live on, and have been living on it for 10-20 years. So, now you've given the teacher's an incentive to get a secondary degree/qualification and after they get said certification paid for out of their own pockets, you're going to take it away? I know budget times are tough, but removing incentives for teachers to get better qualified doesn't seem like the best way to do it. In addition, if I'm a highly qualified teacher looking at a 22% pay cut next year, I'm probably not going to be teaching anymore (or at least not in public school), and that only makes the problem worse.

The best part about all this is that when test scores fall in the coming years because of all the budget cuts, we will all point the blame at the people who are to blame for failing our students.... the teachers.

[Lord Ash]

It is unfortunate that often teachers bear the brunt for the shortcomings of other people and other parts of society, shortcomings that the teachers have little REAL power over, but being public employees they can often bear the brunt of simple, unfocused civil unrest and political machinations. I had a friend recently who said that bankers and teachers are often in the same boat, because people like to heap blame on them even if they don't know or understand the entire story. I pointed out that the essential difference is that people and politicians can and often will do something about the teachers (who can rarely afford to lose much) but when it comes to banks, there isn't a lot a government can do with such a large and powerful private industry. However, I don't want to wander into PPB territory, so I'll leave it at that:)

(On an interesting side note, there was a study that I think Bill Gates was connected to that shows that having a masters does not mean that a teacher is more effective. I don't have time to look it up right now, but frankly I am not shocked... I've always maintained that what matters in teaching is experience, experience, experience!:)

Weezie, I am failing him. I am also creating a forced study time during recess for the week before the next test... I want him to understand what it actually means to sit down and study and prepare. I am afraid he just doesn't know how to do it and cannot figure it out on his own and has never been shown how to do it. Hopefully it will help him going forward!

It is a great job for sure... I adore the kids (who are currently in gym) and the job, and most of the parents, and am blessed with a GREAT principal, and I would recommend it to ANYONE:) But man... some serious frustrations!:)

[cf-62]

Heard this from my wife last night. The state of NC is proposing an across the board pay cut for teachers next year of a couple of percentage points. I get that, budget being what it is and all. Not fun, but governments are out of $ and education salaries are probably the single biggest line item on the budget. Keep in mind that they suspended raises last year as well.

Here's where it gets crazy. For the past 20+ years, teachers have been given a 10% raise in pay if they earned a Master's degree in their field, and another 10% if they are certified by the National Boards. Both take a minimum of a year to qualify for, and all expenses are paid out of pocket by the teacher. Average starting salary for a teacher in NC is around $30K/yr. The proposed budget also calls for doing away with these merit based incentives for secondary degrees.

I have a big issue with this. Many of these people went and got these degrees specifically for the pay increase so they could make a halfway decent wage to live on, and have been living on it for 10-20 years. So, now you've given the teacher's an incentive to get a secondary degree/qualification and after they get said certification paid for out of their own pockets, you're going to take it away? I know budget times are tough, but removing incentives for teachers to get better qualified doesn't seem like the best way to do it. In addition, if I'm a highly qualified teacher looking at a 22% pay cut next year, I'm probably not going to be teaching anymore (or at least not in public school), and that only makes the problem worse.

The best part about all this is that when test scores fall in the coming years because of all the budget cuts, we will all point the blame at the people who are to blame for failing our students.... the teachers.

A 1 year masters in teaching - at a state school - would cost around $1,000. That would definitely have already been recouped by any teacher that is currently getting the bump.

I don't know how much a national board certification would cost, but hopefully, the amount already paid out would have recouped that.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with Chicken Lady's ideas, but I think that cutting annual bonus salaries is better than dumping 15% of the work force.

[Lord Ash]

No public policy discussion, no public policy discussion!:)

[Highlander]

A 1 year masters in teaching - at a state school - would cost around $1,000. That would definitely have already been recouped by any teacher that is currently getting the bump.

I don't know how much a national board certification would cost, but hopefully, the amount already paid out would have recouped that.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with Chicken Lady's ideas, but I think that cutting annual bonus salaries is better than dumping 15% of the work force.

I don't think your figures are accurate. I checked UNCC's website (I am a NC resident and it's the closest state school) and tuition for a full time student was around $2K per semester. To finish a Masters in a year, I would expect you'd also need to attend summer school, so I'd round it off to around $5K in tuition. Throw in another thousand for books and fees, and I think you're getting close.

Now, this assumes that the teacher is attending school full time to get their Masters. If so, they have no income so they're likely accruing another $20K in living expenses for the year (at a minimum). Most that I know go part time, so while they have a full time job to cover the costs, it would take considerably longer than a year to complete the degree. I'd say a minimum of 2 years, and maybe closer to 3, depending on how many classes they can take while working full time.

So we're talking about a 2-3 year investment of time, or a year sabbatical to complete a master's and a cost of $25-30K. That's a fair committment in my mind, and would take 5-10 years to recoup with a 10% bump in pay at a minimum. Plus, the reason many of the teachers did this in the first place was for the base salary increase, not just for the personal satisfaction of having a masters/national boards. Sure, some would still do it if it weren't rewarded like this, but the number of people who did would be far lower.

To be fair, I'm not saying that cutting 15% of the workforce is a better option (all options stink here). I think if you're serious about doing this because it's not of value (per bill gates's point), you should phase it out over time. Otherwise, you're pulling a bait and switch on the teachers. There may be no other options, but if that's the case, I shudder to think what public education will look like if this continues.

At the end of the day, I come back to the statement of "If I were teaching and the state of NC cut my already low pay 22% in a year, would I keep teaching?"

[Jarhead]

No public policy discussion, no public policy discussion!:)
A public school discussion. A public school discussion. That's what it is. ;)

[cf-62]

I don't think your figures are accurate. I checked UNCC's website (I am a NC resident and it's the closest state school) and tuition for a full time student was around $2K per semester. To finish a Masters in a year, I would expect you'd also need to attend summer school, so I'd round it off to around $5K in tuition. Throw in another thousand for books and fees, and I think you're getting close.

Now, this assumes that the teacher is attending school full time to get their Masters. If so, they have no income so they're likely accruing another $20K in living expenses for the year (at a minimum). Most that I know go part time, so while they have a full time job to cover the costs, it would take considerably longer than a year to complete the degree. I'd say a minimum of 2 years, and maybe closer to 3, depending on how many classes they can take while working full time.

So we're talking about a 2-3 year investment of time, or a year sabbatical to complete a master's and a cost of $25-30K. That's a fair committment in my mind, and would take 5-10 years to recoup with a 10% bump in pay at a minimum. Plus, the reason many of the teachers did this in the first place was for the base salary increase, not just for the personal satisfaction of having a masters/national boards. Sure, some would still do it if it weren't rewarded like this, but the number of people who did would be far lower.

To be fair, I'm not saying that cutting 15% of the workforce is a better option (all options stink here). I think if you're serious about doing this because it's not of value (per bill gates's point), you should phase it out over time. Otherwise, you're pulling a bait and switch on the teachers. There may be no other options, but if that's the case, I shudder to think what public education will look like if this continues.

At the end of the day, I come back to the statement of "If I were teaching and the state of NC cut my already low pay 22% in a year, would I keep teaching?"

You're right. I used my graduate school tuition at NC State as my guide, forgetting that even small increases add up over (censored) years.

However, your 22% number is incorrect. The actual decrease in pay is ~17%. Not that 17% makes you feel any better.

Avoiding the public policy discussion by merely stating facts, NC is looking for creative ways to make ends meet - including the actions that led to the current lawsuit from Amazon.com. I would hope that if they choose to do this bump reversal, it would be temporary, or even deferred.

[DukieInKansas]

Question on the NC teacher issue. Will the teachers that have actually completed the necessary steps to get the 10% incentive increases lose the pay already received or will there just be no more given to people newly acquiring the advanced degrees and certifications?

[Highlander]

Question on the NC teacher issue. Will the teachers that have actually completed the necessary steps to get the 10% incentive increases lose the pay already received or will there just be no more given to people newly acquiring the advanced degrees and certifications?

My understanding is that the bonuses go away for everyone - those that earned it 10 years ago and those that earned it last month - at the start of next year. However, it doesn't affect wages already paid out over previous years. Essentially, they just axe the program and teachers with a graduate degree fall back into the same payscale as those with only an undergraduate degree.

[Jarhead]

My understanding is that the bonuses go away for everyone - those that earned it 10 years ago and those that earned it last month - at the start of next year. However, it doesn't affect wages already paid out over previous years. Essentially, they just axe the program and teachers with a graduate degree fall back into the same payscale as those with only an undergraduate degree.

As a person with three grandchildren in the North Carolina Public Schools, I see this as the stupidest move ever for the value and success of the school system.

[Lord Ash]

I will say this; if the state doesn't have the money, there isn't a whole lot they can do. It is terrible, obviously, for the teachers, and will hurt education in North Carolina, but there is only so much a politician can do.

ANYWAY... WAYYYYY too close to PPB stuff for my taste, so how about a fun story about education?

So, I am a sixth grade teacher in an elementary school; grades 1-6. I have a reputation of being the mean, scary, yell-y guy, to the point where former students love telling me how badly they didn't want me as a teacher:) My kids, however, adore me (likely because I ADORE them and they know it) and every time I grumble about tossing one kid out a window or hitting another with a book, they all try to hide their giggles behind their hands; they get the "gruff teacher" game and enjoy it:)

So; yesterday we started book buddies. I am the only teacher in the school who does it; I just feel that it is so important for my kids to get a chance to practice reading with emotion and fluency (they practice for several days each week before book buddies, trying different intonations and checking their tone and cadence with classmates) but also so they get a chance to be a role model for a younger student and to feel the responsibility that entails.

We went yesterday to meet our book buddies, and before we get there I am in the hall with my kiddos, snapping about what a straight line should look like and threatening them that their behavior better be picture-perfect... and then we go in the room, and I snap into "I'm talking to six year old" mode. "HeLLO, boys and girls of Ms. Cs room! I am Mr. A, and I am SOOO excited to be here today! I am going to read this GRREAT book to you today called "SLEDDING." Okay, Ms. C's class... put your hand WAY up in the air if YOU have ever been sledding!"

Just over the top kiddie talk. And my sixth graders (who were sitting around the outskirt of the room) were DYING trying not to laugh, poking each other, eyes wide, watching their mean old teacher hamming it up for the little kids. When we left (with me saying "Why, thank you SO much, Ms. C's class, for being SUCH great listeners!" with this big dumb grin on my face) and got to the hall my kids literally all lost it, laughing and teasing me and going on and on until I finally snapped something at them about being nice for first graders DOESN'T mean I wasn't sitting there secretly thinking about hitting certain sixth graders with a yardstick. Off we went, back to class, them all grinning and watching me as I growled to myself about sixth graders who don't know how to keep quiet in the hallway... it was a super good time:)


Oh; and one other bit of news; we've started our state mandated lockdown drills. Everyone in the corner where you cannot be seen, lights off, doors locked, hope the intruder doesn't force his way in, or get a kid in the hall and threaten to kill them if we don't open the door... or that the intruder is actually a kid who will beg to be let in, and then be let in and start shooting. It is fun trying to explain lockdown drills to the kids without worrying them:)

[Deslok]

For some reason, this year at our school in Seoul, the lockdown/evacuation drill might have a bit more poignancy for the students.

And while I teach high schoolers not 6th graders, I also really enjoy the gruff teacher game with the kids. Of course, I also get to throw things at them, empty water bottles are great attention getters(or will cause you to lose the entire class' attention for the next half hour, one or the other).

[Jim3k]

What?! Chalky, hence puffy, blackboard erasers aren't used for that purpose any more?

When striking a student in the chest, they made a wonderful cloud of chalk dust, plus a nice chalky mess on their shirt. I know I paid attention after being hit. :D

[gus]

Oh; and one other bit of news; we've started our state mandated lockdown drills. Everyone in the corner where you cannot be seen, lights off, doors locked, hope the intruder doesn't force his way in, or get a kid in the hall and threaten to kill them if we don't open the door... or that the intruder is actually a kid who will beg to be let in, and then be let in and start shooting. It is fun trying to explain lockdown drills to the kids without worrying them:)

Seriously?

Is this likely to be helpful?

[-jk]

Seriously?

Is this likely to be helpful?

It's just part of today's scholastic landscape. When my son was in 3 YO preschool, they practiced lockdowns and evacuations (they could clear the building in 90 seconds, infants included). They even practiced pulling on gas masks.

Of course, he was enrolled at the US Senate child care center at the time, and they took extra precautions. No signs outside, just a guard booth and card key access.

But even in the local elementary school, they practice lockdowns. Really in earnest after the Beltway Sniper episode a few years ago.

-jk

[weezie]

I also get to throw things at them, empty water bottles are great attention getters(or will cause you to lose the entire class' attention for the next half hour, one or the other).

Wow! That sounds like fun! I'll bet full water bottles would be pretty darned effective, too!:p
All we ever had was nuns trying to make a room full of girls feel guilty. phooey with that.
Ah, sweet high school memories....:cool:

[Deslok]

Lockdown drills came into play following Columbine for most states. You have mandatory fire drills and a lock down drill. In Korea they've had cause to treat things a bit more seriously, back in the 90s there was a particular time where they had gotten to the point of marking the soccer field for where the helicopters would land for pulling the kids out.

We don't have blackboards anymore, so no chalky erasers. For the most part, we use smartboards(projecting onto a touch screen), but have whiteboards to the side and those erasers can be thrown effectively - my first year I was a bit weak on getting the right arc to hit kids in the back row and there was the occasional collateral damage incident. But I prefer the more satisfying plonk of an empty water(or, perhaps more realistically in my case, Coke Zero) bottle on a kids head or desk.

[Lord Ash]

Seriously?

Is this likely to be helpful?

Yep, apparently it is... they say shooters generally don't break into classrooms, but go for easy targets/hallways... so yeah, we lock up and hide, and hope they don't take the time to knock open the door.

[DukieInKansas]

For some reason, this year at our school in Seoul, the lockdown/evacuation drill might have a bit more poignancy for the students.

And while I teach high schoolers not 6th graders, I also really enjoy the gruff teacher game with the kids. Of course, I also get to throw things at them, empty water bottles are great attention getters(or will cause you to lose the entire class' attention for the next half hour, one or the other).

It's only fair that you get to throw things at the students. I remember a year when an Algebra II student threw his textbook at the teacher at that school. You are just practicing much belated paybacks.

[DukieInKansas]

Lockdown drills came into play following Columbine for most states. You have mandatory fire drills and a lock down drill. In Korea they've had cause to treat things a bit more seriously, back in the 90s there was a particular time where they had gotten to the point of marking the soccer field for where the helicopters would land for pulling the kids out.

We don't have blackboards anymore, so no chalky erasers. For the most part, we use smartboards(projecting onto a touch screen), but have whiteboards to the side and those erasers can be thrown effectively - my first year I was a bit weak on getting the right arc to hit kids in the back row and there was the occasional collateral damage incident. But I prefer the more satisfying plonk of an empty water(or, perhaps more realistically in my case, Coke Zero) bottle on a kids head or desk.

Do you know when they started doing the drills? They weren't done in the mid 70's - even when infiltrators came across the border. However, our company compound was on the south side of the river to be on the same side as the airport. I always wondered what we would have done if we were at SFS if the bridges over the Han were blown. Glad I never had to find out.

[Deslok]

Do you know when they started doing the drills? They weren't done in the mid 70's - even when infiltrators came across the border. However, our company compound was on the south side of the river to be on the same side as the airport. I always wondered what we would have done if we were at SFS if the bridges over the Han were blown. Glad I never had to find out.

Not sure exactly, but it might have been kind of part of the transition from missionary school to more international school with a fair number of embassy kids(that's our general word of warning, if the embassy kids aren't in school, get worried, otherwise things should be fine). They don't share it with teachers, but there's fairly detailed plans for various contingencies about pulling folks out. GM(who employs a decent percentage of our kids parents) tells all their employees that they'll arrange helicopter transport out of Seoul should trouble break out. But yeah, here's hoping I don't have to find out. I actually don't worry much about the NorKs, the only thing I fear setting off a larger conflagration is the South getting fed up with another Northern provocation and deciding to bomb in retaliation and things escalating from there. But who knows, as always in this season, praying for peace.

[DukieInKansas]

Not sure exactly, but it might have been kind of part of the transition from missionary school to more international school with a fair number of embassy kids(that's our general word of warning, if the embassy kids aren't in school, get worried, otherwise things should be fine). They don't share it with teachers, but there's fairly detailed plans for various contingencies about pulling folks out. GM(who employs a decent percentage of our kids parents) tells all their employees that they'll arrange helicopter transport out of Seoul should trouble break out. But yeah, here's hoping I don't have to find out. I actually don't worry much about the NorKs, the only thing I fear setting off a larger conflagration is the South getting fed up with another Northern provocation and deciding to bomb in retaliation and things escalating from there. But who knows, as always in this season, praying for peace.

It was about 50% missionary/50% diplomat/business when I was there as it was the only non-military English language option. It's possible the company had plans for getting us away from the school if something happened but it wasn't shared with the kids. Kids being kids, I never thought about getting away if at school - even though I knew the houses were south of the river for escape purposes. It is amazing how you can put those thoughts out of your head. Never thought about it much unless there was an incident or I had been up to visit the DMZ. We used to make our visitors try to guess what the rows of large concrete blocks were for on the road up to Panmunjom.

[Lord Ash]

Sorry, just had to share because I am excited... went to Barnes and Noble, and got my books for the year... thanks to 200 bucks from the PTO, $150 from gift cards I had, and a 20 percent off educator discount, I think I did pretty well this year!

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7638/dsc0433x.th.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/i/dsc0433x.jpg/)

Anything there folks here have read? There are two at least that I would wager folks here know... and at least two books from Dukies... if you want to read any covers, just click... if you want, you can click it again, you can make it even larger!

It is pretty crazy how expensive books have gotten, though... $7.99 per book nowadays for a soft cover book:(

[BCGroup]

My son (12 at the time in 6th grade) really enjoyed The Hunger Games. Dogsong..well anything by Gary Paulsen is a hit. In fact, if you haven't seen it, check out The Transall Saga (one of his older books). A boy is on his first camping trip, and he sees a mysterious light, sticks his hand in and is taken to another world. It's an excellent book, lots of science and social studies connections, appeals particularly to boys, and the readability level is low enough for any at-risk readers you have (but it looks like a teen novel, which it is). If you don't have it, and it's not in your library, send me a message--I have three copies and I'll send you one for your classroom.

[weezie]

check out The Transall Saga (one of his older books). A boy is on his first camping trip, and he sees a mysterious light, sticks his hand in and is taken to another world.

Thanks! I was just pondering what to get my nephews for Valentine's Day.

[DukeBlueHeart4]

Hey! I just saw this thread on here. I'm a first-year high school teacher. I was ecstatic to finally get a job after an extremely depressing first post-college year. I applied to over 100 of the 115 school systems in NC that year and didn't get a single interview. This job that I have is amazing...and I don't want to complain...but I feel like I'm drowning at times. I am the first to get to work, and am usually the last to leave. I usually get home at around six. I eat dinner and then start working again. It seems like the only time I stop working is to watch Duke games and then I feel like I get behind. Do you guys have any advice for a first year teacher so that I don't get burned out?

[Deslok]

Hey! I just saw this thread on here. I'm a first-year high school teacher. I was ecstatic to finally get a job after an extremely depressing first post-college year. I applied to over 100 of the 115 school systems in NC that year and didn't get a single interview. This job that I have is amazing...and I don't want to complain...but I feel like I'm drowning at times. I am the first to get to work, and am usually the last to leave. I usually get home at around six. I eat dinner and then start working again. It seems like the only time I stop working is to watch Duke games and then I feel like I get behind. Do you guys have any advice for a first year teacher so that I don't get burned out?

A few quick thoughts...
1. You are a first year teacher, you are going to screw up. Try your best, but know you are a rookie, you'll make rookie mistakes and don't let them get you down. Just keep notes(mentally, physically, or electronically) of things you did that worked and didn't so you don't repeat them next year. And don't let the fact that you make mistakes depress you and have you thinking you are a lousy teacher, can't do the job, etc. Because if you start feeling that way, the kids will pick up on it, and it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Stay positive.
2. It gets easier. As a new teacher, every topic you cover is the first time you've done it. As you teach succeeding years, you'll have frameworks in place for various things you teach so you don't have to come up with something new each and every day. You can reuse the things that worked the next year, and spend your time coming up with new things for the ideas that didn't work so well. As the years progress, you don't have to devote much time at all to planning things out. I say only half jokingly that I can roll out of bed in 5 minutes later with no planning teach pretty much any topic in my math texts, because even if I haven't taught that topic before, I've done something reasonably close to it and can adjust a previous lesson on the fly. As with anything else, routine and repetition make some of the tasks mindlessly easy.
3. As a new teacher, there are often more things required of you than for a more experienced hand. Its been a long time since anyone asked me to formally submit lesson plans. After 6 years at my current school(and a number of years at other schools), the administration knows my capabilities and doesn't feel the need to jump through some extra hoops to help verify that. With new teachers, they have to be a little more assured of your abilities, so will ask you to do more to show them those facts.
4. More than anything, make sure to find a niche/school where you are comfortable. If every month ends with a battle with a principal, or head of department, or whatever, then the job you are at may be too aggravating for you to maintain long term. I know it was hard to find that first job(my first job was a pretty horrible one at a pretty lousy district with lousy administration), but for long term success and happiness, you need to find a place where you feel supported and challenged(comfortable doesn't mean that you don't need to grow as a teacher and all that as the years pass, just one where you mostly look forward to going to work at the school).

Anyway, that's just a couple of initial thoughts on things, maybe I'll post more as I think on it, but if you have any questions, there are obviously a number of folks here on this board who are in education and love it.

[BCGroup]

DukeBlueHeart4. I just sent you a message.

[Lord Ash]

Hey! I just saw this thread on here. I'm a first-year high school teacher. I was ecstatic to finally get a job after an extremely depressing first post-college year. I applied to over 100 of the 115 school systems in NC that year and didn't get a single interview. This job that I have is amazing...and I don't want to complain...but I feel like I'm drowning at times. I am the first to get to work, and am usually the last to leave. I usually get home at around six. I eat dinner and then start working again. It seems like the only time I stop working is to watch Duke games and then I feel like I get behind. Do you guys have any advice for a first year teacher so that I don't get burned out?

Hey man!

Nice to see another teacher on board! Hope you love your work, and trust me, the longer you do it, the more you'll grow to love it!

Can I ask what subjects you teach... ages, # of classes, stuff like that?

Okay, some advice... disorganized, for sure, but hopefully helpful.

First off, as seems to be a popular saying these days... it gets better:) No, but it really does... with experience it gets better.

About the amount of work... don't worry, you cannot finish your work! There is always more work that needs to get done, and you'll never finish. It is a very freeing concept, right?:) You need to be okay getting to a point where you are basically done enough for the kids to learn and teaching to get done... and then relax, read a book for 30 minutes, have a glass of wine.

As far as grading (which can take AGES)... establish certain routines and systems for your work, for the classroom, and for evaluation of student work. Do not create assessments that will, in the long run, cost vastly more time than they are worth. If you can, use rubrics to help grade student work... they can help you to identify "short cuts" as you grade. If you have 60 essays to grade, establish ahead of time what features an A paper must feature (for example, a top paper should have three examples of some idea) and grade with that in mind. Someone only has two examples? Drop them down the rubric to a lower grade. It is often easier (and more accurate) than trying to read the whole thing and process it on some "deeper" level to find a grade. Oh, I also find it helpful to, after you get a feel for your students, grade the top students first. It helps give you a bit of an idea of what realistic expectations should be.

Divide all of your work into chunks. Don't go thinking you have to be planning a year at a time... you don't. Make sure you are set for a set period of time, and just be sure you have an idea of where you are going after that... but there is no need to have detailed plans six months ahead of time.

Respect your own time... teaching WILL burn you out if you aren't careful. As I said, you'll never FINISH all the work you have. If the kids have to wait an extra day to get a grade back in order for you to get a breath, then so be it... they can wait. If you are fried, and you stay fried, you won't make it.

Fear not man... the first year is NUTS. It will get easier, and you'll be able to catch your breath:) If I come up with anything else (especially more inspirational stuff... I feel like I came off as a bit negative!) I'll post.

Oh, and Des... yeah, not writing lesson plans is key. Haven't done one in YEARS... and I'll be frank, I have absolutely no need to. It is MUCH better, right?:)

[Lord Ash]

My son (12 at the time in 6th grade) really enjoyed The Hunger Games. Dogsong..well anything by Gary Paulsen is a hit. In fact, if you haven't seen it, check out The Transall Saga (one of his older books). A boy is on his first camping trip, and he sees a mysterious light, sticks his hand in and is taken to another world. It's an excellent book, lots of science and social studies connections, appeals particularly to boys, and the readability level is low enough for any at-risk readers you have (but it looks like a teen novel, which it is). If you don't have it, and it's not in your library, send me a message--I have three copies and I'll send you one for your classroom.

Hey BC, sorry I didn't see this before! Yeah, Paulsen is awful good... got a lot of his work:) I don't know the Transall Saga... I'll have to check the school library for it, I know I don't have it:) Anyway, thanks for the suggestion!

[Lord Ash]

Okay...

So, we are giving a midyear sixth grade math assessment.

One question has a table with three groceries in it... a gallon of milk, a loaf of bread, and a can of soup.

For each, it lists a price.

The question says "Show three different examples of how to spend as much as possible without going over $10.00. At least one of each item must be bought in each of your three examples. Show or explain how you got your answer."


Okay... easy enough. Kids write "1 gallon of milk, 6 cans of soup, and 2 loaves of bread," stuff like that.

Then I hit this answer.


Eggs ($.61), Cookies($1.71), and Bananas ($.25) = $2.58
Cake ($1.45), Butter ($.55), Cereal ($2.52)= $3.47
Oatmeal ($1.24), Apple ($.22), Cream ($1.00) = $3.26

Total: $9.41



*sigh*

Well, at least it is under ten bucks, I guess, even if the math isn't right.

[cf-62]

Okay...

So, we are giving a midyear sixth grade math assessment.

One question has a table with three groceries in it... a gallon of milk, a loaf of bread, and a can of soup.

For each, it lists a price.

The question says "Show three different examples of how to spend as much as possible without going over $10.00. At least one of each item must be bought in each of your three examples. Show or explain how you got your answer."


Okay... easy enough. Kids write "1 gallon of milk, 6 cans of soup, and 2 loaves of bread," stuff like that.

Then I hit this answer.


Eggs ($.61), Cookies($1.71), and Bananas ($.25) = $2.58
Cake ($1.45), Butter ($.55), Cereal ($2.52)= $3.47
Oatmeal ($1.24), Apple ($.22), Cream ($1.00) = $3.26

Total: $9.41



*sigh*

Well, at least it is under ten bucks, I guess, even if the math isn't right.

The math errors are funny. Even funnier is the kid's imagination with what to buy, given that there were only three items on the list.

[tecumseh]

This is probably over the line with respect to public policy but I am not sure how teachers became the whipping boy for the state's budget woes. Hang in there, polling suggest that teachers are still quite popular.

[Lord Ash]

Yeah, gotta be careful with the public policy bit... don't want to get shut down by the powers that be:)

Actually had wanted to update this...

Have a boy, Chinese (family is off the boat and speaks no English) who was injured a few weekends at home ago playing football.

He was out for three days, then came in with a doctors note. He was in a soft brace (almost like an ace bandage) and on crutches. And when he DID come in, he was in AGONY. I mean almost fainting kind of agony. He tried very hard not to show it, but good lord, he was dying. I had to sit him away from everyone else and then support his leg, and lifting his leg up to put on a chair reduced him to almost crying in pain.

After an hour the kids left to gym, and I went to the nurse, who informed me that the note was actually from an acupuncturist. I spoke with the student, who told me that was the only person he had seen... no xrays, no mris, no nothing.

We arranged for an interpreter to call home that afternoon, saying the boy cannot come back to school until he is seen. For the rest of the day the kid stayed in class, trying to keep anyone from touching his leg, or the chair he was resting it on, but kids are physical idiots and kids kept brushing his leg, brushing the chair... a first grade book buddy gave it a solid wack when she turned around and I thought my student was going to faint from the pain, all doubled up and groaning...

So. We make the call. Kid is out until Monday. Comes back Tuesday with a note from a pediatrician saying xrays are negative, but if pain continues he needs to see a specialist. I asked the boy if he knew if there were any plans to see another doctor. He told me that, as far as he knew, there was nothing.

Now... I worked in sports for some years... I played sports for a LOT of years... I've seen some bad knee injuries, and I've never seen anyone in this kind of continued pain. CLEARLY something is really, really wrong. I know the family speaks no English and has no insurance, but this is KILLING me. And it is damned traumatizing to my other kids... when they brush against him or his chair the student almost loses it, and the kids feel TERRIBLE...

Finally I called the Dept. of Family Services to see if there is anything they can do. They asked for us to follow up before they get involved. Called today again with someone who speaks Chinese to ask what the follow up treatment will be, and the parents still didn't seem to get it... all they asked about was whether or not he could still come to school.

I hate this. I have never seen a kid in such total agony, and it honestly it is gutting my class a bit, as the kids are SO aware of it. I am so frustrated with the parents for not taking care of their kid, regardless of what issues they face, and I am frustrated because there aren't really many options for us.

Anyway... very frustrating.

[BCGroup]

For background, I've worked in education for almost 30 years, including teaching at risk students in grades 6-9. Just before Christmas, we discovered that a friend of our son was living on the streets. There is a long history of drug use by mom, abuse, etc. At 16 he left and had been on the streets. He's been with us since Dec 21. There is no way to describe the culture he is from, even prior to the homelessness. For him, it is natural to cuss out a teacher, fight to defend yourself, etc. He has never known a stable family life, and he came from no rules to family rules, school rules, etc. We have had so many ups and downs, including helping him get treatment for ADHD, seeing him break up with a girlfriend who (thankfully) was not pregnant, helping him stop smoking, and teaching him to respect school authorities, including the teachers. Six weeks ago, he said he might as well not be in school because his father told him he would fail. He also learned he was reading at a pretty low level, which he said was fine, sine he "hates reading.". Today, Wed., the following has happened: the medicine and counseling is kicking in, his midterm report is full of Cs, which would be As and Bs except for absences. In one course that he hated and knew he would fail, he's doing fine and has been asked by the teacher to help other students. He regularly studies with us as long as we make it fun. And tonight, he read a book for 20 minutes without looking up. He has a new girlfriend (and they are dating age-appropriately with no worries of pregnancy) and he is talking about a future after he graduates. He is also planning a summer lawn service job. There are still ups and downs, but we are seeing solid progress, and so are his teachers. Oh, he is also now a DBR fan because the kitten on the front page today is mine, who he has adopted. For all the teachers, you do make a difference, even when you don't think so. And even if you feel like you are dipping water from the ocean with a spoon, you never know what impact you are having. We happen to be lucky enough to see it and share it with his teachers.

[wilson]

For background, I've worked in education for almost 30 years, including teaching at risk students in grades 6-9. Just before Christmas, we discovered that a friend of our son was living on the streets. There is a long history of drug use by mom, abuse, etc. At 16 he left and had been on the streets. He's been with us since Dec 21. There is no way to describe the culture he is from, even prior to the homelessness. For him, it is natural to cuss out a teacher, fight to defend yourself, etc. He has never known a stable family life, and he came from no rules to family rules, school rules, etc. We have had so many ups and downs, including helping him get treatment for ADHD, seeing him break up with a girlfriend who (thankfully) was not pregnant, helping him stop smoking, and teaching him to respect school authorities, including the teachers. Six weeks ago, he said he might as well not be in school because his father told him he would fail. He also learned he was reading at a pretty low level, which he said was fine, sine he "hates reading.". Today, Wed., the following has happened: the medicine and counseling is kicking in, his midterm report is full of Cs, which would be As and Bs except for absences. In one course that he hated and knew he would fail, he's doing fine and has been asked by the teacher to help other students. He regularly studies with us as long as we make it fun. And tonight, he read a book for 20 minutes without looking up. He has a new girlfriend (and they are dating age-appropriately with no worries of pregnancy) and he is talking about a future after he graduates. He is also planning a summer lawn service job. There are still ups and downs, but we are seeing solid progress, and so are his teachers. Oh, he is also now a DBR fan because the kitten on the front page today is mine, who he has adopted. For all the teachers, you do make a difference, even when you don't think so. And even if you feel like you are dipping water from the ocean with a spoon, you never know what impact you are having. We happen to be lucky enough to see it and share it with his teachers.Wow. As the child of two career public educators, and one who is at least attempting to embark on a career in education now, please allow me to say that this is really, really, immensely wonderful. They literally make movies about stuff like this (just ask Sandra Bullock). You have my utmost respect for doing what you have done. The world needs more people like you.

[Lord Ash]

Hey all,

BC, that is a great story. Thanks for doing a good thing:) How are things going?

Thought I'd share the latest ridiculousness...

So I have a young lady in my class... a nice girl who is awful pretty, but who also realizes it. She wears a TON of makeup, and has a bad habit of wearing INCREDIBLY short shorts... like, rear-end-hanging-out sorts of things. She is part of a social group that is somewhat similar... all very pretty, popular girls who we've heard a lot of rumors about as sometimes being a touch mean on The Facebook.

Anyway... a woman teacher on staff had spoken with the girl a few times about her shorts not being appropriate, and we had hoped she would make the change on her own, but nothing happened.

Then a student who sits at this girls desk in another class gives me a note. She said she found it sitting in the lip of the desk, and folded up you could see some curses showing. She gave it to me but clearly wasn't sure if she should.

So I opened it up and it was very strange... it had the name of the teacher who had spoken to her, surrounded by random words... some really bad curses, and then some random stuff (Osama Bin Laden, Muzlem (the spelling offended me more than the curses!), donut... random stuff.)

I looked at the handwriting, and it was clearly hers... teachers have to get good at this stuff, and this was a clear match... bs and ds written the same, a connected the same, etc etc. I even compared it to other writing of hers and made a little photocopy comparison of the two pieces, letter by letter.

So I meet with this other teacher and the principal, and we felt we should call mom and dad in... between the dress, the note, and some rumors of some meanness on The Facebook, we thought we should maybe keep an eye on her, to make sure that she didn't start down a "bad" path.

So the principal gets the number to call, but the mom calls first! "I need to come see you," she says, and the principal says "Well, I was calling you also" so a meeting is set.

Holy cow.

The mother comes in with the husband, the kid, and the grandmother, and promptly informs us that she is going straight to the Bd of Ed to report the woman teacher who spoke with her daughter and she will have her JOB. Apparently her daughter was bullied and she won't take it. After having the daughter leave, we show her the note and she insists it isn't her daughters, insists that we aren't handwriting experts so how would we know, demands we call the police and bring them in with a handwriting expert to figure out whose handwriting it is, points out that the girl has examples of work around the classroom and ANYONE could forge the note to get her in trouble... she is calling her lawyer, this is ridiculous, we are "after" her daughter... she literally puts her hand in the face of the woman teacher, saying "I don't want to hear THIS ones voice again!" and insists she might have ALL of our jobs, because we clearly are out to get her daughter.

We were flabbergasted.

When we suggested that her clothes didn't fit school dress code, the grandmother began to rant about how it wasn't our place to say, and then that we should require an inseam of a certain length. "How are we going to measure the inseam on a young lady?" asked the principal. "Just tell them they cannot buy anything shorter!" insisted the grandmother. "We can't tell people what to buy," said the principal. "We are just a school. However, we can tell them how they need to dress, which is why this is coming up." The grandmother went crazy, looking at me and saying "Oh, so you want them all coming in wearing a burqa, is that it?!" she demanded. "No," I said, full of wide-eyed innocence "Why would she wear a burqa? She isn't a Muslim. She can't even spell Muslim." (I couldn't help it... it was too good of a line to not use. Thankfully I don't think they got it.)

It was incredible. The mother insisted that there was no clothing issue and said she would refuse to come bring her daughter appropriate clothing if we called home, despite the booty shorts and the overwhelming blue eyeshadow that some teachers insisted privately would have looked far more appropriate on a street walker. And they insisted their daughter was framed, that the note found in her desk in her handwriting was a fake planted there to get the girl in trouble, despite the fact that she doesn't really have any enemies, and that anything about Facebook was false. The mother went so far as to demand an apology from all of us to her daughter for being out to get her, maybe in front of the whole school so everyone would know it wasn't her daughter who wrote it.

Oh man. After almost two hours the principal just wound it up, we talked to the girl to make sure she knew we certainly weren't out to get her and we wanted her to be comfortable in class, and that was that. When the family left we were all spent. Seriously? Call the police and get a handwriting expert?

Such a momentous waste of time and energy, and such a delusion on the parents part... despite the fact that we said, again and again, we simply wanted mom and dad to be aware because when kids hit puberty they change a lot and can make a lot of social-driven mistakes, they were sure we hated their daughter and we were planning to destroy her. Insanity.

Anyway... there is my story of the day. Yay for parents who help the process along!:(

[DukieInKansas]

Wow, Lord Ash, what a story. I worry about kids whose parent's think they can do no wrong. Even if your kid is the most perfect child on the face of the earth, they are still capable of doing something wrong.

I wonder if the young lady knew the note was turned in and this was her attempt to ward off trouble. If so, I hope she doesn't figure out who turned in the note and try to get back at the person.


Once again, thank you for teaching our future.

[tecumseh]

You're the dog and you just got kicked. I attribute much of the hostility out there to people who lead very frustrated lives and they just need to vent and kick the dog. It's like the internet the venom on it never ceases to amaze me. It's also part of the accepted thinking that everyone needs to be heard. Very tangentially related I read something I had read much earlier by Atul Gawande about when patients choose poorly. We seek to empower the common man yet make scarce provision for when this is not appropriate. Much of the time informed consent waste of time and sometimes patients can make truly awful decisions.

The time spent in the meeting by the teachers and principals could have been put to much better use.

[Lord Ash]

Wow, Lord Ash, what a story. I worry about kids whose parent's think they can do no wrong. Even if your kid is the most perfect child on the face of the earth, they are still capable of doing something wrong.

I wonder if the young lady knew the note was turned in and this was her attempt to ward off trouble. If so, I hope she doesn't figure out who turned in the note and try to get back at the person.


Once again, thank you for teaching our future.

Yeah, it is amazing. We said, maybe five or six times, that we weren't judging the girl as bad or anything... we just felt she made a mistake. But no, they wouldn't accept it.

Oh, and they KNEW who turned in the note, and the mother actually said "Oh, and So-and-So turned in the note? Right, because we all know the problems THAT kid has!" (the kid had a rumor of taking something from someones desk attached to them last year) And the mothers are friendly! She said three or four nasty things about the kid who turned in the note, saying maybe it was even that girl setting her daughter up. Oh man, I'm telling you, it was such an inappropriate mess.

It was interesting... the girl who was the center of the trouble doesn't really know the principal and doesn't really like the other teacher, but when I saw her after the meeting and asked her if she was okay, she burst into tears and flung her arms around me and starting apologizing. We went for a walk and a drink at the water fountain and got her settled, but I did wonder if maybe there was some guilt there about me being pulled into this whole thing since she knew she DID deserve it. But I teased her a bit and got her smiling again, and she has been fine since then.

It's funny, because on the flip side I have a pair of young ladies in my class this year who are, without a doubt, two of the greatest humans I've ever met. As responsible, kind, caring, smart, hardworking, humorous, and lovely as a person can be. Like, split-your-brownie-and-give-half-to-the-fat-whiny-unpopular-girl-from-another-class-in-front-of-everyone kind of lovely. Like, as-cute-as-any-girl-has-the-right-to-be-and-yet-totally-uncaring-about-looks lovely. Like, perfect-scores-on-every-portion-of-the-state-test-and-gifted-and-talented-class-and-school-president-and-yet-STILL-not-a-DROP-of ego-about-it kind of lovely. I've seen both of their parents recently, and both parents nervously wanted to make sure their kids were doing well... you know, saying things like "I know she is a good girl, but I hope she is being a good student in your class?" They legit worried that their girls might be doing something wrong... both sets of parents were so intent on making sure their girls were doing right. I made sure to tell both families that their kids were among the most amazing people I've ever had the pleasure to know, much less teach, and that I am legit jealous that the parents get to spend their lives with such wonderful people.

And Tech, yeah, absolutely... afterward we all sat there, looking at our watches, wondering how on earth these people just took two hours of our lives with this mess. I do wish my principal was a little stronger, because he could have wrapped it up quicker I think:( I think his theory was to let them get it all out of their systems and hopefully head off any running to the Bd. of Ed.

[DukieInKansas]

Hopefully, the principal was able to head off a trip to the Board of Ed.

From your conversations with the two sets of parents, I think I know why the two students are so wonderful.

(Bragging aunt alert) Apparently, you met my niece in one of those students. :D Ok, she lives in PA and is finishing her freshman year, so probably not. She cracks me up - in a recent academic planning meeting, she was asked if there was any area where she needed help. She said math so the one faculty person suggested a special class that helps students prepare for the PA state testing. Finally, another faculty type, knowing she had one of the hardest teachers for math, asked how she was doing. Niece had to admit she had a 99 average in the class. My sister and brother-in-law are raising 3 genuinely wonderful kids. (end of bragging aunt message)

[Lord Ash]

Whelp, the year just ended. And where all the other classes of kids ran out right at the bell screaming and cheering, my kids left a half hour after school actually ended all crying and hugging. Yep. I was giving them my goodbye, and got a little hitch in my voice and had to fight it back down, and that was that, they all broke down. The girls, the boys... everyone in tears. None of them wanted to leave. To be honest, I didn't particularly want them to leave. Good times:)

It actually is so darn sad, really... you are with them for a year, there when they come in, there when they leave, and always there when they need you.... you really get to love them, and then they move on. I come back next year, to the same room, and they aren't there... it makes me feel a little sad to know they are going on in life, growing up and having successes and heartbreaks, and I can't be there to share it with them. It is really sad. I am just glad they come back and visit... the last few weeks of this year was packed. A few of the high schoolers actually came a few days ago and sat in class for 20 minutes for read aloud before I had to kick them out :)

One nice thing; I was told by the principal that I got 12 requests for next year, after only having six classes total in the town. Lots of little brothers and sisters. Oh, and also a lot of pains in the rear end. But still.

Anyway... one last thing...










Suck it, ya'll, I've got two months off! Woooo! Have fun at your desks!!! I'm jumping in the pool!!! Liz Lemon OUT!!!!

:D

[DukieInKansas]

Lord Ash and any other teachers on this board,

Thank you for teaching our kids. Enjoy your summer off. Come back rested to teach the next set of kids. Your real reward is when kids return to your class to see you long after you have taught them. To me, that is the sign of a good teacher.

Sincerely,

DukieInKansas

[Lord Ash]

Lord Ash and any other teachers on this board,

Thank you for teaching our kids. Enjoy your summer off. Come back rested to teach the next set of kids. Your real reward is when kids return to your class to see you long after you have taught them. To me, that is the sign of a good teacher.

Sincerely,

DukieInKansas

Man:) I try to be all mean, and you come back with that? *sigh*

Thanks Dukie:)

[BCGroup]

Sorry, I just read this. I'd love to give you a happy ending, but about eight weeks ago his grandmother gave him his mothers number without talking to us. She's in a halfway house for using meth and has another outstanding warrant, she was just released from jail seven months ago. D. Quit taking his medicine, became very angry all the time, kept getting in trouble at school despite our efforts to support the school, then did a couple of thing I'd prefer not to write about. He left our house two weeks ago and is living with a friend while his mother says she is sending him a bus ticket to CA. We did everything we could, and it almost destroyed our family. I ended up in the hospital, our 13 year old is still traumatized by some of the events, and my husband had to bear the heavy lifting to end things. We are focusing on that we tried our best, and at 17, he made some very poor choices. And we're trying to rebuild things at home. I tell teachers all the time they make a difference everyday, even when they don't feel like it. Trying to believe that for myself now.


Hey all,

BC, that is a great story. Thanks for doing a good thing:) How are things going?

Thought I'd share the latest ridiculousness...

So I have a young lady in my class... a nice girl who is awful pretty, but who also realizes it. She wears a TON of makeup, and has a bad habit of wearing INCREDIBLY short shorts... like, rear-end-hanging-out sorts of things. She is part of a social group that is somewhat similar... all very pretty, popular girls who we've heard a lot of rumors about as sometimes being a touch mean on The Facebook.

Anyway... a woman teacher on staff had spoken with the girl a few times about her shorts not being appropriate, and we had hoped she would make the change on her own, but nothing happened.

Then a student who sits at this girls desk in another class gives me a note. She said she found it sitting in the lip of the desk, and folded up you could see some curses showing. She gave it to me but clearly wasn't sure if she should.

So I opened it up and it was very strange... it had the name of the teacher who had spoken to her, surrounded by random words... some really bad curses, and then some random stuff (Osama Bin Laden, Muzlem (the spelling offended me more than the curses!), donut... random stuff.)

I looked at the handwriting, and it was clearly hers... teachers have to get good at this stuff, and this was a clear match... bs and ds written the same, a connected the same, etc etc. I even compared it to other writing of hers and made a little photocopy comparison of the two pieces, letter by letter.

So I meet with this other teacher and the principal, and we felt we should call mom and dad in... between the dress, the note, and some rumors of some meanness on The Facebook, we thought we should maybe keep an eye on her, to make sure that she didn't start down a "bad" path.

So the principal gets the number to call, but the mom calls first! "I need to come see you," she says, and the principal says "Well, I was calling you also" so a meeting is set.

Holy cow.

The mother comes in with the husband, the kid, and the grandmother, and promptly informs us that she is going straight to the Bd of Ed to report the woman teacher who spoke with her daughter and she will have her JOB. Apparently her daughter was bullied and she won't take it. After having the daughter leave, we show her the note and she insists it isn't her daughters, insists that we aren't handwriting experts so how would we know, demands we call the police and bring them in with a handwriting expert to figure out whose handwriting it is, points out that the girl has examples of work around the classroom and ANYONE could forge the note to get her in trouble... she is calling her lawyer, this is ridiculous, we are "after" her daughter... she literally puts her hand in the face of the woman teacher, saying "I don't want to hear THIS ones voice again!" and insists she might have ALL of our jobs, because we clearly are out to get her daughter.

We were flabbergasted.

When we suggested that her clothes didn't fit school dress code, the grandmother began to rant about how it wasn't our place to say, and then that we should require an inseam of a certain length. "How are we going to measure the inseam on a young lady?" asked the principal. "Just tell them they cannot buy anything shorter!" insisted the grandmother. "We can't tell people what to buy," said the principal. "We are just a school. However, we can tell them how they need to dress, which is why this is coming up." The grandmother went crazy, looking at me and saying "Oh, so you want them all coming in wearing a burqa, is that it?!" she demanded. "No," I said, full of wide-eyed innocence "Why would she wear a burqa? She isn't a Muslim. She can't even spell Muslim." (I couldn't help it... it was too good of a line to not use. Thankfully I don't think they got it.)

It was incredible. The mother insisted that there was no clothing issue and said she would refuse to come bring her daughter appropriate clothing if we called home, despite the booty shorts and the overwhelming blue eyeshadow that some teachers insisted privately would have looked far more appropriate on a street walker. And they insisted their daughter was framed, that the note found in her desk in her handwriting was a fake planted there to get the girl in trouble, despite the fact that she doesn't really have any enemies, and that anything about Facebook was false. The mother went so far as to demand an apology from all of us to her daughter for being out to get her, maybe in front of the whole school so everyone would know it wasn't her daughter who wrote it.

Oh man. After almost two hours the principal just wound it up, we talked to the girl to make sure she knew we certainly weren't out to get her and we wanted her to be comfortable in class, and that was that. When the family left we were all spent. Seriously? Call the police and get a handwriting expert?

Such a momentous waste of time and energy, and such a delusion on the parents part... despite the fact that we said, again and again, we simply wanted mom and dad to be aware because when kids hit puberty they change a lot and can make a lot of social-driven mistakes, they were sure we hated their daughter and we were planning to destroy her. Insanity.

Anyway... there is my story of the day. Yay for parents who help the process along!:(

[Lord Ash]

Aw crap. Well listen, kudos to you and your family for doing your very best to help a young person out. If he wasn't in a place where he could accept it, so be it.

[DukieInKansas]

BCGroup,

I'm sorry to hear the help you tried to give the young man didn't turn out the way one would hope. You and your whole family are in my prayers that you will heal and come out of this stronger as people and a family. I pray that at some point the young man will take a look at his life and remember that a family cared enough to put themselves out for him and it will make a difference at that point.

Thank you for trying to make a difference.

DukieInKansas

[Lord Ash]

Hey all!

Well, the new year has started, and so far so good... class is a bit quiet, but well behaved and I am sure they'll open up a bit soon enough.

Anyway... had a funny moment today that I had to share... I think I actually watched a boy step from boyhood to the first beginning of manhood!

So. I have a big group of girls this year who are friends. They are also very fashion-conscious, and unfortunately as fashion today seems to be short shorts they tend to wear them. To be honest none of the girls do it for the "wrong reasons" I don't think... they aren't quite like that; they are generally a very sweet, nice group. They mainly do it because it is the fashion and they have a bunch of older sisters who dress like that. One girl in particular, a very cute young lady (we'll call her Marisa) with a high school age sister who is quite a beauty tends to wear shorts that are really, really inappropriate. I haven't addressed it as my principal has sort of given up on the issue and there is no way I'm tackling it without support from an administrator, but a number of the teachers have exchanged the old "Oh man, come on." look as the classes go down the hall.

So anyway... today there was this thing the kids all had to write on... a sort of list on a clipboard that I put on a chair in the front of the room. They lined up to come write on it, but for some reason none picked it up; instead, they either bent down to write or they got on their knees on the rug in front of the chair to write. I ended up standing off to the side a ways watching them write and go back to their desks, and just generally keeping an eye on things.

The class gradually moves through and the line shrinks, and soon there are just two left; Marisa, whose shorts today were so short that bits were beginning to poke out, and behind her a somewhat nerdy, somewhat chunky boy we'll call Winston (his real name might be even nerdier:). He is still a bit immature (the difference in sixth grade between boys and girls is pretty noticeable) and a real sight; round glasses, always has the cowlick of hair, the chubby red cheeks, the not-too-fashionable clothes... he feels like he stepped right out of 1941 England. He giggles a lot and talks about cartoons and action figures and stuff with the other boys... he is that sort:)

So Marisa, like a lot of the kids before her, gets on her knees at the chair and then sort of leans forward to lean on the chair as she writes, ending up sort of on all fours with her elbows on the chair and her rear end in the air. She is writing for a few seconds and Winston is just looking absently around the room, eyes blinking owlishly behind his spectacles, waiting his turn. He then looks down to see if the person in front of him is done, and suddenly his eyes widen as he takes in the sight a foot in front of him. His head sort of pulled back, and his chin very, very slowly dropped slowly, ending in this O shape of sheer terror and unrivaled delight. As Marisa was kneeling in front of him, rear in the air, he literally stood there for a minute as she wrote, his eyes GLUED down, absolutely and completely FROZEN in place, as she wrote away. His eyes were like dinner plates; it was like someone gaining their sight for the first time in their life. This little scene went unchanged for a minute, and no one in class noticed a thing (except, of course, my poor friend Winston who is doing his best impression of a statue.)

Then Marisa finished up, got up, smiled at Winston and handed him the pen, and went back to her desk. His O mouth slowly changed to this perfect shocked grin of absolute and sheer revelation, his mind clearly in some other brand-new land as he carefully bent down and began to write.

It was funny; afterwards I noticed that he seemed to go a little out of his way to talk to her the rest of the day, going so far as to partner up with her for a science assignment.

It was one of the cuter boy/girl things I've ever actually seen in school... no one in the room realized what was happening except me, and the expression on his face was like something out of a comic book:)

Anyway... a funny moment:)

[DukieInKansas]

Thanks for sharing this moment. What fun to be able to watch young people mature.

I hope your school year is full of inquisitive students and cooperative parents.

[throatybeard]

I hope the nasty detractors of the teachers, nationwide, are happy because they're helping to destroy already-fragile morale.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/08/education/teacher-morale-sinks-survey-results-show.html?src=me&ref=general

Worst of all:


More than 75 percent of the teachers surveyed said the schools where they teach had undergone budget cuts last year, and about as many of them said the cuts included layoffs — of teachers and others, like school aides and counselors. Roughly one in three teachers said their schools lost arts, music and foreign language programs. A similar proportion noted that technology and materials used in the schools had not been kept up to date to meet students’ needs.

“The fixation on testing has been a negative turn of events when the things that engage kids in schools are all being cut,” said Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers.

[Lord Ash]

Hate to say it, but I am not surprised. I would never recommend anyone become a teacher at this point... It just feels like a dying profession. In my home state of NJ it definitely is a dying profession... The governor has implimented a 2% property tax cap, so no district is allowing raises above 2%, even if there are even more students than before and demand and results are increasing. With the mandatory increase in teacher payment towards health benefits already hammering salaries, and obviously no way for teachers to make a bonus or anything (and no way for districts to pay for them even if they existed) teachers will actually end up losing money as the years go on, as the cost of living and inflation far outstrip the raises of .5 and 1% that have been settled on. It is just foolish and irresponsible to become a teacher, as there is no financial viability left in a profession that was already a tough one for any American with a family and expenses to manage.

Fun times. A veteran teacher I work with, a very determined and smart woman who was apparently a well known leader in the civil rights movement and who cares infinitely about her kids, recently told me to get the heck out of education while I can, and get into consulting, because I was wasting my time and my brains in the dead end that is the classroom. It was a very depressing moment.

[gus]

Hate to say it, but I am not surprised. I would never recommend anyone become a teacher at this point... It just feels like a dying profession. In my home state of NJ it definitely is a dying profession... The governor has implimented a 2% property tax cap, so no district is allowing raises above 2%, even if there are even more students than before and demand and results are increasing. With the mandatory increase in teacher payment towards health benefits already hammering salaries, and obviously no way for teachers to make a bonus or anything (and no way for districts to pay for them even if they existed) teachers will actually end up losing money as the years go on, as the cost of living and inflation far outstrip the raises of .5 and 1% that have been settled on. It is just foolish and irresponsible to become a teacher, as there is no financial viability left in a profession that was already a tough one for any American with a family and expenses to manage.

Fun times. A veteran teacher I work with, a very determined and smart woman who was apparently a well known leader in the civil rights movement and who cares infinitely about her kids, recently told me to get the heck out of education while I can, and get into consulting, because I was wasting my time and my brains in the dead end that is the classroom. It was a very depressing moment.

That is distressing. I was educated in NJ, and had so many good teachers. I hate to think I was just lucky, and that kids now would need to be even luckier.

[Lord Ash]

Sorry, wanted to add... it isn't only money that is depressing the teachers I work with.

There is, unfortunately, a lot of "legislation from above" that is really getting people upset. The two biggest things are about teacher and student evaluation.

Student evaluations nowadays are almost completely state tests. We focus SO much of our "education" on these tests, tests which were created by someone else and that do not rate anything like Social Studies or Science or Art or anything like that.

Plus, something that really bothers teachers is the logic-defying goal of all children showing progress beyond the progress that is typical for their age group. Obviously tests test different material and abilities as you move on by year... a first grade test tests the abilities and knowledge expected of a first grader... a second grade test is correspondingly more difficult.

However, a student showing consistent performance is not good enough. A student cannot be fairly consistent from year to year, showing appropriate development. Instead, not only do they have to progress as we expect them do (as determined by how the tests are made more difficult) but they have to get better than that. Given that ALL students have to do this, it can be overwhelming. As I always say... we cannot get all ADULTS to agree that Elvis is dead or that they haven't been kidnapped and probed by aliens... how can we expect 8 and 9 year olds to show consistent progress beyond that which is expected and appropriate for their age?

I'll write more later about the second part, teacher evaluations, soon... got to run:)

[gus]

...how can we expect 8 and 9 year olds to show consistent progress beyond that which is expected and appropriate for their age?...

That doesn't seem mathematically possible.

But get back to the classroom, ya lazy git.

[Lord Ash]

Heh:)

Yeah, it is basically an impossible standard.

If the tests are properly and adequately made, and thus account for increases in both knowledge and capability, how then do we expect ALL students to make progress above and beyond what is expected for their age? What about kids who progress slower? Or who are not as smart? Or are not interested in doing well? Or who suffered a massive loss in their family two weeks before the test? Or...?

This blows me away. It is simply impossible to create a challenging and appropriate test that A) all students will pass and B) all students will outpace. And no one seems to notice? I don't get it.



The other thing that I mentioned is teacher evaluation. Teacher evaluation is a very, very, VERY difficult thing. How do you account for the influence of a teacher in the learning of a child? How do you separate the teachers influence from the influence of parents, of friends, of genetics, of circumstances? Unfortunately the evaluation methods that are being proposed by many politicians and education professionals who are, for all intents and purposes, political positions seem almost impossible to manage.

I can say this; when I rate myself, I certainly don't look at state test scores. I see which kids developed a work ethic, which kids internalized the reasons for the North defeating the South in the American Civil War, which kids eagerly look forward to writing every day because they love being the gods of their own little worlds, which parents tell me that their child comes home every day with story after story from school that they HAVE to share, which kids come to visit even years after I've had them.

And how do you evaluate this? There is absolutely no equivalent in any other profession. It is maybe the most difficult aspect of teaching, but in some ways I cannot help but think it is also one that can be more easily solved by having principals and administrators who work far more closely with their staff, evaluating them constantly as they go and constantly keeping in touch with the families those teachers work with.

But some of the models out there seem impossible and so far removed from what is important about teaching, and the idea of tying a teachers salary to the performance of their students on a state test is just insulting. Can you imagine if doctors got paid based on their patients remaining healthy, or if soldiers got paid based on winning or losing a war? Obviously it would never happen.

The most important part of teaching is the most difficult thing in the world to test... it is like testing love. I don't know how on earth we can then try to tie salaries to it... and unfortunately many teachers I know are becoming more and more discouraged as the job they regard as so much more important than taking a multiple choice test is being evaluated more and more often solely on that.

[kmspeaks]

Lord Ash I may be printing off copies of your last few posts in this thread and handing them out to people who keep suggesting I get into teaching ;)

I have an MBA but a rough job search (because I want to work in professional sports) has lead me to the schools the last year and a half working with small groups of students identified as "at risk for failing" state assessments. I love my students and there is nothing like seeing them "get it". However, I have no desire to pursue a license and a full time teaching position because of the issues with assessment and teacher evaluation. It's insanity.

Keep fighting the good fight. As I'm sure you know there are many in the profession who agree with you on these issues (unfortunately they don't seem to be the people with the power to make decisions).

[Lord Ash]

Lord Ash I may be printing off copies of your last few posts in this thread and handing them out to people who keep suggesting I get into teaching ;)

I have an MBA but a rough job search (because I want to work in professional sports) has lead me to the schools the last year and a half working with small groups of students identified as "at risk for failing" state assessments. I love my students and there is nothing like seeing them "get it". However, I have no desire to pursue a license and a full time teaching position because of the issues with assessment and teacher evaluation. It's insanity.

Keep fighting the good fight. As I'm sure you know there are many in the profession who agree with you on these issues (unfortunately they don't seem to be the people with the power to make decisions).

*laugh* Please do. It is close to impossible for me to recommend anyone get into education.

And good luck with sports. Remember, don't scoff at unpaid internships, that is how things start in sports. Look for spots with minor league teams; it is rare to just start off at an NBA team or whathaveyou. It can be a very enjoyable field.

[Lord Ash]

Hi all,

Sorry, a bit short on positive stories recently, but thought folks might get a kick out of this...

We are currently studying the American Civil War. One of my students, a cute young lady who unfortunately does struggle a bit with school, really dedicated herself to preparing for the big chapter test and was determined to do well. She did, getting an A-, and according to mom also picked up something else in the meantime... a crush on none other than Robert E. Lee.

Who would have guessed?

[rasputin]

Hi all,

Sorry, a bit short on positive stories recently, but thought folks might get a kick out of this...

We are currently studying the American Civil War. One of my students, a cute young lady who unfortunately does struggle a bit with school, really dedicated herself to preparing for the big chapter test and was determined to do well. She did, getting an A-, and according to mom also picked up something else in the meantime... a crush on none other than Robert E. Lee.

Who would have guessed?

I would have guessed Stanton.:D

[theAlaskanBear]

Hi all,

Sorry, a bit short on positive stories recently, but thought folks might get a kick out of this...

We are currently studying the American Civil War. One of my students, a cute young lady who unfortunately does struggle a bit with school, really dedicated herself to preparing for the big chapter test and was determined to do well. She did, getting an A-, and according to mom also picked up something else in the meantime... a crush on none other than Robert E. Lee.

Who would have guessed?

Was PT Beauregard or Stuart too dashing? ;)

[Lord Ash]

Heh... It was actually funny, talking about JEB Stuart being quite the rage amongst southern belles, and describing him, and then showing them a picture... Somehow, for some reason, they had a hard time "seeing it.". There was definitely some explaining to do re: hats and beards:)

[Bostondevil]

And you used "average worker at Goldman" in your response. Do you have anything of substance to add to the conversation?

As a resident statistician, I'll comment. The old joke about averages, of course, comes to mind. Paraphrasing here - you're at your local bar wondering what the average worth of the people around you might be, then Bill Gates walks in.

Salary distributions are notoriously skewed data. A much, much, better measure of the middle value in salary data is, of course, the median. But even with your average salary of $58,000 (with benefits taking you to $70,000), we'd need to know the range. Typically with teacher salaries, you start very low, you work your way and get tenured, if you can afford to stay in the profession that long, then you hit the ceiling and your salary doesn't go up any more unless you switch to being a specialty teacher or administrator. But let's also compare teachers to a Joe average office worker. If Joe average office worker runs out of printer ink or needs a pad of paper or even a new box of red pens, he asks the office manager to order some. Teachers have to go to Staples and buy their own. If every teacher stopped supplying their own classrooms tomorrow, many of our children would suddenly not have paper or pencils or crayons or art supplies or a host of other things we take for granted. I'm sure these expenses are tax deductible but still, it ain't right.

[Brian913]

As a resident statistician, I'll comment. The old joke about averages, of course, comes to mind. Paraphrasing here - you're at your local bar wondering what the average worth of the people around you might be, then Bill Gates walks in.

Salary distributions are notoriously skewed data. A much, much, better measure of the middle value in salary data is, of course, the median. But even with your average salary of $58,000 (with benefits taking you to $70,000), we'd need to know the range. Typically with teacher salaries, you start very low, you work your way and get tenured, if you can afford to stay in the profession that long, then you hit the ceiling and your salary doesn't go up any more unless you switch to being a specialty teacher or administrator. But let's also compare teachers to a Joe average office worker. If Joe average office worker runs out of printer ink or needs a pad of paper or even a new box of red pens, he asks the office manager to order some. Teachers have to go to Staples and buy their own. If every teacher stopped supplying their own classrooms tomorrow, many of our children would suddenly not have paper or pencils or crayons or art supplies or a host of other things we take for granted. I'm sure these expenses are tax deductible but still, it ain't right.


The median teacher salary in NJ is $60,119. There is no district in NJ that has a starting salary less than $40K. Around half the districts have starting salaries of $50K+. To this you have to add benefits.

[Bostondevil]

The median teacher salary in NJ is $60,119. There is no district in NJ that has a starting salary less than $40K. Around half the districts have starting salaries of $50K+. To this you have to add benefits.

All right then, the average salary and the median salary are both around $60,000, which means the distribution probably isn't that skewed. A lot of salary data are skewed. OK, so with a low end of $40,000 and a mean/median around $60,000 that puts the upper end at $80,000, roughly. Although now I don't remember why we got into a discussion of teacher salaries. Was somebody pointing out that teaching is a well-paid profession or were they arguing that it isn't? Entry level of $40K doesn't sound particularly high to me considering that you can't get a teaching job without a college education and with a ceiling of $80K, better hope you didn't have to take out any loans to get that degree.

[-jk]

Let's not take this thread into the policy realm.

thanks,

-jk

[InSpades]

As a resident statistician, I'll comment. The old joke about averages, of course, comes to mind. Paraphrasing here - you're at your local bar wondering what the average worth of the people around you might be, then Bill Gates walks in.

Salary distributions are notoriously skewed data. A much, much, better measure of the middle value in salary data is, of course, the median. But even with your average salary of $58,000 (with benefits taking you to $70,000), we'd need to know the range. Typically with teacher salaries, you start very low, you work your way and get tenured, if you can afford to stay in the profession that long, then you hit the ceiling and your salary doesn't go up any more unless you switch to being a specialty teacher or administrator. But let's also compare teachers to a Joe average office worker. If Joe average office worker runs out of printer ink or needs a pad of paper or even a new box of red pens, he asks the office manager to order some. Teachers have to go to Staples and buy their own. If every teacher stopped supplying their own classrooms tomorrow, many of our children would suddenly not have paper or pencils or crayons or art supplies or a host of other things we take for granted. I'm sure these expenses are tax deductible but still, it ain't right.


Let's not take this thread into the policy realm.

thanks,

-jk

The gentleman from the great state of NJ would like to point out that his post to which BD replied was from April 2010 :).

[Bostondevil]

The gentleman from the great state of NJ would like to point out that his post to which BD replied was from April 2010 :).

Sorry, didn't notice, the thread got bumped and I hadn't read it before. (Median is still a better measure of central tendency in salary data and there's nothing policy related about that statement.)

[Brian913]

The median salary (w/o benefits) for an elementary teacher in NJ was about $55K in 2006. For high school only districts, about $65K. These are probably about 7-10% per cent higher now.

The median teacher per pupil salary is about $7K, again without benefits.


Actually my post on the same subject in 2010 addressed the issue of median/mean salary numbers.

[Jim3k]

In San Mateo, a kid was removed from his honors English class (http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mateo-county-times/ci_20493867/parents-who-sued-school-over-sons-punishment-cheating) for copying homework, a breach of an agreement signed by him and his mother. But Daddy, a lawyer, sues because the punishment is not perfectly even-handed.

Good luck with the suit, Dad, but your kid did breach his agreement. And the general public doesn't agree with you.

[weezie]

The kid sounds like a primo dope, anyway. He was supposed to write in a journal and he copied from others, a journal?!
Well, maybe it was a reading journal but geez, it doesn't sounds like he has much bouncing around inside his dome.

[rasputin]

The kid sounds like a primo dope, anyway. He was supposed to write in a journal and he copied from others, a journal?!
Well, maybe it was a reading journal but geez, it doesn't sounds like he has much bouncing around inside his dome.

If the kid is a primo dope, it's because you don't get peaches off a pear tree.

[Highlander]

Education related - so I am posting this here as well as in it's own thread:

http://myfamilymymeals.com/nominee/view/id/78

I would ask you to go to this link and vote for Adam White. Adam is a friend of mine who was recently accepted into a Duke certificate program to help non profit groups owners manage their charities. Adam's charity is the Vicky Honeycutt foundation. Vicky was the mother of Adam's good friend and a beloved teacher in the Concord, NC area who recently died of cancer. My wife had her in High School, and worked with her when she herself became a teacher in the school system. The charity is set up specifically to give financial assistance to teachers dealing with cancer related illnesses, either to themselves or in their immediate family. You can read about the foundation here:

http://www.vickiehoneycutt.org/

The poll above is a charity drive where the winning foundation receives $1,000 and is featured on the Family Dollar website. Adam is currently either first or second in this poll, and it closes in just over a week. You are allowed to vote once per day and registration is required. However, you can opt out of any advertising or spam when you register.

Please take a few minutes to vote. It costs nothing, helps out someone with Duke ties, and is for a very worthy cause. Thanks!