Heat Pumps!

[JStuart]

Since I never make a major decision in life without consulting with the DBR boards, I'll throw this one out for comment:
Our 19-20 year-old oil furnaces have died on us (the last cold wave did them in) and we're probably going to have them replaced with a heat pump system, which will include replacing the 40-year old ductwork (R-2 insulation, at best). Our vendor claims we'll see a significant reduction in electricity bills along with the obvious lack of purchasing heating oil 2x per year at $800-1000 a pop.
Have any of you done something similar recently? Any good stories?
Thanks.
JStuart

[allenmurray]

Since I never make a major decision in life without consulting with the DBR boards, I'll throw this one out for comment:
Our 19-20 year-old oil furnaces have died on us (the last cold wave did them in) and we're probably going to have them replaced with a heat pump system, which will include replacing the 40-year old ductwork (R-2 insulation, at best). Our vendor claims we'll see a significant reduction in electricity bills along with the obvious lack of purchasing heating oil 2x per year at $800-1000 a pop.
Have any of you done something similar recently? Any good stories?
Thanks.
JStuart

http://www.scogginsco.com/ Ask for Clay Scoggins. Tell him Allen Murray referred you. they will not steer you wrong. Highly reputable, strong integrity, and they do it right. Actually, I would go so far as to say that if you use any HVAC company in Durham other than Scoggins then you are probably dumber than a carolina fan.

[BlueDevilBaby]

I've not, but I did have my heat pump system checked recently. My system is getting rather old, so the tech recommended a Luxaire or Carrier - he prefers Luxaire for features, plus it's cheaper than Carrier. Haven't done any further research because not going to install new system yet. Mind you, I live in a three story townhouse of approximately 1400 sq ft., including basement. I pay between $100 and $150 per month for electricity. Newer systems are much more efficient than mine, so my electricity bills would likely be cheaper. Otherwise, I haven't a clue.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Since I never make a major decision in life without consulting with the DBR boards, I'll throw this one out for comment:
Our 19-20 year-old oil furnaces have died on us (the last cold wave did them in) and we're probably going to have them replaced with a heat pump system, which will include replacing the 40-year old ductwork (R-2 insulation, at best). Our vendor claims we'll see a significant reduction in electricity bills along with the obvious lack of purchasing heating oil 2x per year at $800-1000 a pop.
Have any of you done something similar recently? Any good stories?
Thanks.
JStuart

You didn't mention whether natural gas is available on your street. One of the best changes I've made to my home over the years was to change over from an electric heat pump to a gas furnace. It's forced air heat that feels warmer to me than heat from a heat pump. The central air conditioning unit would be a separate unit.

If gas is available, once the line is run for your furnace, many possibilities open up. Examples include gas logs in the fireplace, gas range or dual fuel range for cooking and baking, gas hot water heater (great when the power is out!), gas clothes dryer (dries much faster than electric), perhaps a gas grill.

FYI Most natural gas suppliers offer an equal payment plan. The first year on gas, you'd have to pay whatever the monthly charge is until you build up a history. The second year you could request the equal payment plan.

The same sort of thing would pertain with Duke Energy if you go all electric.

[allenmurray]

Scoggins was able to replace our system with only minor modifications to the duct work, rather than a complete redo - thus saving us a significant amount of money. I've referred a lot of folks to that company and I've never known anyone who had a bad experience.

If you have natural gas a gas pack might be the way to go.

If not, we've been very happy with our heat pump system. One of the things they had us explore was how long we planned to stay in the house. If you think you'll be there 15 years you will probably want to go with a upper end model. If you pan to resell within the next five years a cheaper brand might be better - it will be under warantly during the time you live there. Having an expensive brand won't increase the resale value of your house.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I sent you a PM. Also, I'd listen to AllenMurray :D

[allenmurray]

Also, I'd listen to AllenMurray :D

I'm not sure my expertise extends much beyond heat pumps and BBQ - but in those two areas I know my stuff! :D

[Jarhead]

You didn't mention whether natural gas is available on your street. One of the best changes I've made to my home over the years was to change over from an electric heat pump to a gas furnace. It's forced air heat that feels warmer to me than heat from a heat pump. The central air conditioning unit would be a separate unit.

If gas is available, once the line is run for your furnace, many possibilities open up. Examples include gas logs in the fireplace, gas range or dual fuel range for cooking and baking, gas hot water heater (great when the power is out!), gas clothes dryer (dries much faster than electric), perhaps a gas grill.

FYI Most natural gas suppliers offer an equal payment plan. The first year on gas, you'd have to pay whatever the monthly charge is until you build up a history. The second year you could request the equal payment plan.

The same sort of thing would pertain with Duke Energy if you go all electric.

Hi, DBD. I'm glad you mentioned gas, but I'll trump your recommendation with a multi-fuel heat pump. It runs on electricity until it needs supplementary heat, and it switches to gas. That's when the all-electric heat pump jumps up a few thousand watts, and gives the economy of heat pumps a kick in the behind. I've had the multi-fuel job for about a year and a half, and I am thoroughly pleased with it. When it needs the supplementary heat the gas takes over, and does the heavy work a he11 of a lot cheaper.

This was forced on us when our gas furnace went kaput. We had the furnace and a standard central air system using the same air handler. It worked fine for about 15 years, but disappointed us in giving up so soon. The HVAC guy that I was dealing with told me that my air conditioner was okay, but would soon be on the fritz also. He said that we should just replace the furnace, and wait for the air to give out. I asked the man, just out of curiosity, about the multi-fuel heat pump, but he knew nothing about it. To his credit, he checked it out and referred me to another company. I learned that I could get the gas heat pump at a much lower cost than replacing the old furnace and later replacing the air conditioner. It's a Trane, and it is so quite that it is hard to hear when it is running. I recommend it.

[JG Nothing]

Since I never make a major decision in life without consulting with the DBR boards, I'll throw this one out for comment:
Our 19-20 year-old oil furnaces have died on us (the last cold wave did them in) and we're probably going to have them replaced with a heat pump system, which will include replacing the 40-year old ductwork (R-2 insulation, at best). Our vendor claims we'll see a significant reduction in electricity bills along with the obvious lack of purchasing heating oil 2x per year at $800-1000 a pop.
Have any of you done something similar recently? Any good stories?
Thanks.
JStuart

I replaced my heat pump last summer. The general discussion bulletin board at HVAC-talk was a great resource for advice and a general education on heating and cooling:
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=3

[DevilAlumna]

Be sure to check with your power or gas utility to see about any rebate offers! We got $800 back just from having to replace our old gas furnace with an only slightly more efficient one + electric heat pump combo.

There may also be State incentives for improving your efficiency - the company you work with should be able to tell you the current offers available.

[fuse]

We have dual zone in our house and the upstairs A/C died this summer.

We replaced an existing old Carrier system with a Carrier infinity system. It was not cheap, but our bills have decreased as a result.

I'd highly recommend Carrier just based on our personal experience, and if you are in the Raleigh, NC area G&M was the service company that did our work, and I'd highly recommend them as well. Carrier's website indicates G&M was the only Carrier dealer in the area to win the Carrier presidents award and from their service and customer friendly attitude I can see why.

[Indoor66]

I am in south Florida and recently (December, '09) replaced a 35 year old heat pump Rheem system with a new Rheem system. The difference is amazing. Far more efficient - both cooling and heating. My first power bill was 1/3 of my prior bill!

[JStuart]

Thanks, all, for the fine advice and support: we're not anywhere close to a gas line, and the ducts are old and full of soot and grunge. Not the best time budget-wise, but I'll see if Duke Power (oops..Duke ENERGY) is in a generous mood...
At least the temps aren't in the 17 range this weekend!
Stuart

[elvis14]

Scoggins was able to replace our system with only minor modifications to the duct work, rather than a complete redo - thus saving us a significant amount of money. I've referred a lot of folks to that company and I've never known anyone who had a bad experience.

I'm one of the people that Allen referred to to Scoggins...thank goodness. They were great to work with went over and above in their service and were just really nice guys as well.

[pamtar]

As a previous poster stated, definitely check for those rebates!

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=rebate.rebate_locator

Also, find out where your electricity comes from. If you're on the nuclear grid than electricity prices may remain more stable than coal in the future. Still, NatGas is generally WAY more environmentally friendly that heating your house with coal electricity. Plus, it gets your house to temperature a lot quicker. We also have an programmable thermostat that cuts the heat up from 6am until 8, and from 5pm to 10pm. It really helps with the bill and is relatively inexpensive.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

We also have an programmable thermostat that cuts the heat up from 6am until 8, and from 5pm to 10pm. It really helps with the bill and is relatively inexpensive.
I don't buy that a programmable thermostat saves you money if you are changing it throughout the day (and night). When you cool off the house, the entire mass of the house and contents cools to room temperature. You then have to heat it back up, and it takes a helluva lot of energy to do that. Thermal inertia is a witch. I think if you leave the temp set where you want it you're better (and cheaper) off.

[Johnboy]

I don't buy that a programmable thermostat saves you money if you are changing it throughout the day (and night). When you cool off the house, the entire mass of the house and contents cools to room temperature. You then have to heat it back up, and it takes a helluva lot of energy to do that. Thermal inertia is a witch. I think if you leave the temp set where you want it you're better (and cheaper) off.

The Department of Energy disagrees with you (http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12720), in most cases (depending on your system).

[allenmurray]

The Department of Energy disagrees with you (http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12720), in most cases (depending on your system).

From the same article:

Programmable thermostats are generally not recommended for heat pumps . . when a heat pump is in its heating mode, setting back its thermostat can cause the unit to operate inefficiently, thereby canceling out any savings achieved by lowering the temperature setting. Maintaining a moderate setting is the most cost-effective practice.

Or as my installer said, "decide where you want it, set it there, and leave the darn thing alone"

[OZZIE4DUKE]

From the same article:
Programmable thermostats are generally not recommended for heat pumps . . when a heat pump is in its heating mode, setting back its thermostat can cause the unit to operate inefficiently, thereby canceling out any savings achieved by lowering the temperature setting. Maintaining a moderate setting is the most cost-effective practice. Or as my installer said, "decide where you want it, set it there, and leave the darn thing alone"
When there is a 2 degree or more difference between the measured temp and the (heating mode) set point, the resistive heat strips turn on (also called "emergency heat"). That is very inefficient, although the air comes out very warm and feels good. A "dual fuel" heat pump would use gas (or propane) instead of resistive strips for the emergency heat.

I agree with the installer above.

[allenmurray]

Newer houses that are "tighter" and better insulated are more likely to have heat pumps. That is a second reason that houses with heat pumps don't benefit from programmable thermostats (or benefit so little that the difference is negligible).

In a house with a different source of heat the Department of Energy reccomendations make more sense.

My pervious house was 100 year-old farm house I was renovating. It had an old fashioned "Warm Morning" brand gas circulator in the central room as the only source of heat (no A/C). The gas circulator kept the house quite warm and was very efficient. When I had central heat and air put in the installer said the house was far too old and poorly inusulated for a heat pump and we went with a "gas pack". We used a programable thermostat and varied the setting depending on whether or not we were home.

Our current house is "tight" and has a heat pump. We set the thermostat and leave the darn thing alone.

Of course the best way to save money on heat is to set it back and put on a sweater. I'm amazed when I walk into some homes in the middle of the winter with the owners wearing short sleeved t-shirts and shorts and the heat set at 74 degrees. They also tend to be the ones who complain the ost about their gas and/or electric bills.

[budwom]

alas, if one lives too far north, one cannot avail oneself of a heat pump, technology I really like. Gotta stick with the Clampetts' Texas Tea for the time being I guess....

[OZZIE4DUKE]

alas, if one lives too far north, one cannot avail oneself of a heat pump, technology I really like. Gotta stick with the Clampetts' Texas Tea for the time being I guess....
That, or NG/Propane.

[duketaylor]

Do they have other optional rates? Most people don't know they have options as to how they are charged. Dominion Virginia Power offers three options. I changed mine and installed a demand-controller and have saved 35%. Ozzie can expound on this as we've discussed it before.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Do they have other optional rates? Most people don't know they have options as to how they are charged. Dominion Virginia Power offers three options. I changed mine and installed a demand-controller and have saved 35%. Ozzie can expound on this as we've discussed it before.
We've agreed to discuss it, probably this week.

35% is outstanding. Most are "only" 20 to 30% :D

[OZZIE4DUKE]

http://www.scogginsco.com/ Ask for Clay Scoggins. Tell him Allen Murray referred you. they will not steer you wrong. Highly reputable, strong integrity, and they do it right. Actually, I would go so far as to say that if you use any HVAC company in Durham other than Scoggins then you are probably dumber than a carolina fan.
Allen, I called Clay Scoggins today per your recommendation above, but unfortunately for me he's on vacation this week. But someone else will call me tomorrow morning and I'll still tell them you referred me!

[Thurber Whyte]

This advice probably comes too late to help the original poster, but let me put a plug in for geothermal heating/cooling. It is just like a heat pump, except that uses a loop of water circulating through coils underground to obtain/disperse heat rather than a condenser in the open air. It is far more efficient than a conventional heat pump because the temperature of the soil a few feet underground remains more or less constant in the 50 degree range throughout the year. It can be used in any climate region (other than permafrost).

The only downside is the significantly greater upfront cost and a few logistic concerns in placing the coils. However, unlike solar panels which are green, but may or may not ever pay for themselves, a geothermal unit is supposed to pay for itself in about five years.

I do not have direct experience with geothermal yet, but we are looking to replace our heat pumps in the next few years after they reach the end of their normal life. However, I have friends who specialize in green building and green building standards and they enthusiastically recommend it.