The pennant (and wild card) race

[Olympic Fan]

Just thought I'd take this debate out of the AL MVP race thread and give the baseball fans on this board a place to talk about the closing stretch in the pennant races.

Actually, not a ton of drama left. The only really significant race that is (to my mind) still to be decided is the AL Central, where Detroit leads Minnesota by three games in the loss column (the ONLY way to count at this point) with 13 more to play. That would normally be pretty solid, except the two teams have four games coming up in Detroit. The Twins need to win at least three of four to have a chance ... but it's possible.

I think the Yankees lead on the Red Sox is equally tenuous in the AL East. The surging Red Sox have cut the Yankee margin to four games in the loss column and may get closer before their three-game head-to-head series in Yankee Stadium this coming weekend. Before that set, the Yankees have three games at the Angels, while the Red Sox have four in Kansas City.

The Red Sox probably have to sweep the series with the Yankees to have a chance, but that's something they've done before.

The only problem with this race is that it's not THAT important -- with Texas now eight games behind the Red Sox in the loss column (and 12 games behind the Yankees), it's pretty obvious that the AL East runnerup will win the AL wild card. So the Yankees and Red Sox are merely playing for postseason positioning.

The division winner will get to open with the Tigers or Twins and will have the homefield advantage in both the ALDS and ALCS. The wild card will have to open at the California Angels and will have the home field disadvantage in both series (even if the AL East runnerup finishes with a better record than the Angels, the Division champion gets the homefield over the wild card).

BTW, the Angels have a safe seven game lead on the Rangers in the AL West race.

The NL is equally non-dramatic. The Phillies are a lock in the NL East (up nine games with 14 to play). Despite last night's loss, the Cards are a lock in the NL Central (up nine games on the Cubs with 12 to play). The Dodgers "only" have a five-game lead on the Rockies with 12 left, but they are nine games up for a wild card berth, just in case they choke the NL West race.

The Rockies have the NL wild card well in hand -- up four games on the Giants and five on the Marlins and Braves with 12 to go.

So heading into the final two weeks, the only real drama -- as far as who makes and who misses the playoffs -- is the Detroit-Minnesota race.

The Yankees-Red Sox race can impact playoff seeding. And with the Dodgers (60 losses), Phillies (61 losses) and Cards (63 losses), so close, the last two weeks could change the NL playoff seedings. But that's about it.

PS One point of interest for tonight's games -- both New York and Boston are starting veteran pitchers who have been battling physical problems. I think the Yankees need Andy Pettite more desperately than the Red Sox need Tim Wakefield. But both are valuable postseason assets.

[bluebear]

Just thought I'd take this debate out of the AL MVP race thread and give the baseball fans on this board a place to talk about the closing stretch in the pennant races.

Actually, not a ton of drama left. The only really significant race that is (to my mind) still to be decided is the AL Central, where Detroit leads Minnesota by three games in the loss column (the ONLY way to count at this point) with 13 more to play. That would normally be pretty solid, except the two teams have four games coming up in Detroit. The Twins need to win at least three of four to have a chance ... but it's possible.

I think the Yankees lead on the Red Sox is equally tenuous in the AL East. The surging Red Sox have cut the Yankee margin to four games in the loss column and may get closer before their three-game head-to-head series in Yankee Stadium this coming weekend. Before that set, the Yankees have three games at the Angels, while the Red Sox have four in Kansas City.

The Red Sox probably have to sweep the series with the Yankees to have a chance, but that's something they've done before.

The only problem with this race is that it's not THAT important -- with Texas now eight games behind the Red Sox in the loss column (and 12 games behind the Yankees), it's pretty obvious that the AL East runnerup will win the AL wild card. So the Yankees and Red Sox are merely playing for postseason positioning.

The division winner will get to open with the Tigers or Twins and will have the homefield advantage in both the ALDS and ALCS. The wild card will have to open at the California Angels and will have the home field disadvantage in both series (even if the AL East runnerup finishes with a better record than the Angels, the Division champion gets the homefield over the wild card).

BTW, the Angels have a safe seven game lead on the Rangers in the AL West race.

The NL is equally non-dramatic. The Phillies are a lock in the NL East (up nine games with 14 to play). Despite last night's loss, the Cards are a lock in the NL Central (up nine games on the Cubs with 12 to play). The Dodgers "only" have a five-game lead on the Rockies with 12 left, but they are nine games up for a wild card berth, just in case they choke the NL West race.

The Rockies have the NL wild card well in hand -- up four games on the Giants and five on the Marlins and Braves with 12 to go.

So heading into the final two weeks, the only real drama -- as far as who makes and who misses the playoffs -- is the Detroit-Minnesota race.

The Yankees-Red Sox race can impact playoff seeding. And with the Dodgers (60 losses), Phillies (61 losses) and Cards (63 losses), so close, the last two weeks could change the NL playoff seedings. But that's about it.

PS One point of interest for tonight's games -- both New York and Boston are starting veteran pitchers who have been battling physical problems. I think the Yankees need Andy Pettite more desperately than the Red Sox need Tim Wakefield. But both are valuable postseason assets.

Nice summary..as a Sox fan, I'd like to catch the Yankees to pick up the home field advantage and also face the tigers--nothing against the tigers but I'm worried about how long the Sox playoff streak against the Angels can continue...Short of a sweep in NY though, this is very unlikely..
Agree that Wakefield will be a big asset in the post season if he can get back on track. He won't likely start but can eat up innings and preserve the other relievers if a game gets out of hand..

[weezie]

Man, I'm just glad the Tigers have a night off. They are killing me....
Feast or famine, always. It's emotionally exhausting!

[Jim3k]

And the curious thing is that the hottest team in the majors right now is the last place Oakland A's. They are playing like spoilers, but even if they win nothing much will happen on the spoiling front. They have a 7 game win streak and have won 12 of their last 14. They have 13 games left, playing entirely within their division (6 against the Angels), but are unlikely to to make a serious dent in the standings even if they keep up the pace. They are 7 games behind Texas and 11 behind the Mariners.

I see them tonight against (a wounded) Texas. It should be a pleasant evening no matter what. But no $7 beer.


Clarification: Last place in the Pacific.

[Jim3k]

And the curious thing is that the hottest team in the majors right now is the last place Oakland A's. They are playing like spoilers, but even if they win nothing much will happen on the spoiling front. They have a 7 game win streak and have won 12 of their last 14. They have 13 games left, playing entirely within their division (6 against the Angels), but are unlikely to to make a serious dent in the standings even if they keep up the pace. They are 7 games behind Texas and 11 behind the Mariners.

I see them tonight against (a wounded) Texas. It should be a pleasant evening no matter what. But no $7 beer.


Clarification: Last place in the Pacific.

Boy...was that ever a waste. Kudos to Kevin Millwood, though. Win streak broken. Last place remains deserved.

[blazindw]

Man, I'm just glad the Tigers have a night off. They are killing me....
Feast or famine, always. It's emotionally exhausting!

My emotions exactly! That Twins/Tigers 4-game series to close the season could be one of the most important in Tigers history.

[Olympic Fan]

Well, a poor night for the two best teams in the AL ... both go down on the road.

I suspect the Yankees feel a little better about Andy Pettite's comeback performance (3 ER in six innings) than the Red Sox feel about Wakefield's return (4 ER and seven BB in five innings). But neither was exactly dazzling.

It keeps the speculation alive as to the playoff rotations. For the Yankees, it's likely Sabathia, Burnett and Pettite -- with Burnett a mystery (he bounced back from a bad month with a pretty good start last time out) and Pettite's shoulder a concern.

For the Red Sox Beckett and Lester appear to be locks. Hey, Sox fans, who is No. 3 -- Dice-K? Burchholz?

The fourth starter/long relief guy in both camps is a mess -- Chamberlain and Wakefield.

Interesting choice by Francona tonight -- he's starting Byrd against Greinke. Is that a giveaway pick (to avoid wasting a quality starter against the KC ace)?

[bluebear]

Well, a poor night for the two best teams in the AL ... both go down on the road.

I suspect the Yankees feel a little better about Andy Pettite's comeback performance (3 ER in six innings) than the Red Sox feel about Wakefield's return (4 ER and seven BB in five innings). But neither was exactly dazzling.

It keeps the speculation alive as to the playoff rotations. For the Yankees, it's likely Sabathia, Burnett and Pettite -- with Burnett a mystery (he bounced back from a bad month with a pretty good start last time out) and Pettite's shoulder a concern.

For the Red Sox Beckett and Lester appear to be locks. Hey, Sox fans, who is No. 3 -- Dice-K? Burchholz?

The fourth starter/long relief guy in both camps is a mess -- Chamberlain and Wakefield.

Interesting choice by Francona tonight -- he's starting Byrd against Greinke. Is that a giveaway pick (to avoid wasting a quality starter against the KC ace)?

Buchholz deserves the number 3 slot based on his performance since August but i suspect that if Dice-K continues to pitch reasonably well, he'll be number 3 with Buchholz moving to number 4. Things could be shuffled though depending on how games 1 and 2 go.
Big squander by the sox last night..Yankees at Angels and end up losing and the sox, despite a poor performance by Wake, blow a big lead. The bullpen is starting to look a little shaky with Delcarmen and Bard being hit or miss in recent appearances. The backend of Wagner and Papelbon looks fine but Dice K and Buchholz are not likely to pitch 7 innings..

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Things look much rosier for the Yankees this morning. They finally won in LA, the Sox and Rangers lost, so the Yanks are in the playoffs and have a 5 game lead in the lost column on both the Sox and the Angels, in regards to winning the division and having home field advantage throughout the playoffs and World Series!

[YourLandlord]

Interesting choice by Francona tonight -- he's starting Byrd against Greinke. Is that a giveaway pick (to avoid wasting a quality starter against the KC ace)?

The Red Sox aren't trying to win any more games this season. Meaning, they've got the Wild Card and aren't making a push for the division. They would be foolish to -- there are no guarantees they'd get it, and they'd simply tire themselves out.

This is why they are a) starting junky starters, b) throwing junky relievers, and c) resting position players.

They're trying to see who has got what left now that it's nearly October -- like auditions for the playoffs.

[Olympic Fan]

Another interesting night in the AL East race (if there really is a race) ... good news for the Yankees in that they won a series in Anaheim for the first time in five years. Better news in that AJ Burnett had his second straight strong start in a row, allowing one run and striking out 11 in 5 2/3 innings.

Also Ian Kennedy came out of the pen and make his first appearance of the season. He was kind of shaky (loading the bases), but got out of trouble. I'm sure we'll see him a few more times down the stretch -- he might be a guy that can give the Yankees useful bullpen innings in postseason.

But Kennedy is just a bonus ... Burnett's return to form is vital for the Yankees' postseason rotation. If he's not an outstanding pitcher in October, New York's title dreams will be short-lived.

Yanks are off until the three-game set with the Red Sox starts Friday. New York's Magic Number is five with nine games to play. The Red Sox have an extra game left at Kansas City last night after rallying from a 2-0 deficit to swamp the Royals 9-2 last night.

In the best race left, the Twins stayed on Detroit's heels (3 games back) and the Rockies dropped a game to its pursuers in the NL wild card race. Colorado is still four games up (on the Braves and Giants) with 10 to play, so I don't think there is much of a problem there.

[Olympic Fan]

On the 10th to the last day of the season, things got a lot tighter in the AL Central -- the last legitimate Division race left -- and there was a HUGE development in the Yankees/Red Sox duel.

The Tigers lost another game on their lead to the Twins -- meaning that with nine days left, they are up two. Remember, these two teams play four times next week (starting Monday). It's still up for grabs.

The Yankees beating Boston in the opening game of their three-game set in Yankee Stadium wasn't that big of a deal, although it brought the Yanks close to clinching the Division and homefield advantage throughout the playoffs (their magic number is three).

But what was a big deal was a third-inning line drive off the bat of Cabrera that smacked Lester in the right knee. It was an ugly play and Boston's top pitcher (over the last month) was down a long time. The x-rays were negative, but the "experts" on MLN suggested that he wouldn't be able to throw in practice for 7-9 days -- which could have a huge impact on the Red Sox postseason rotation.

That might make Dice-K's start against the Yankees (and Sabathia) today a big one. He's had two good starts since coming back. A third would establish him as another solid starting option in postseason.

The NL wild card race didn't get any closer Friday night, but it did sort itself out a little bit with the Rockies and Braves winning, while the Giants and Marlins lost. The latter two are now five behind the Rockies and two behind the Braves. Atlanta is still three games behind the Rockies, but at least they've turned it into a two-team race.

[jimsumner]

I believe it was Swisher who hit the liner off the leg.

And yes, Tigers-Twins has suddenly become the most (only?) compelling race left. It must have been SI and the laudatory article on how valuable the Tigers' season has been to the failing psyche of the Motor City. Now, that's pressure.

[Olympic Fan]

I believe it was Swisher who hit the liner off the leg.


Jim, you are usually right when you correct me, but not in this case. It was Melky Cabrera who hit the line drive (Swisher had walked on the previous at bat, loading the bases):

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2009/09/25/3317754-lester-leaves-game-after-struck-near-right-knee?category=sports

Good news for the Red Sox. Lester said the injury is not as bad as had been reported and that he'll take his regular start next week.

Even better news: Dice-K had another strong start Saturday (I think that's his third straight good one since returning from injury), even if he was outpitched by Sabathia. But having Lester and Dice-K in top form for postseason (to go along with Beckett and Buchholz) sets them up pretty well, even if it is going to be the wild card.

Actually TWO great races left. The best is the AL Central. The Tigers did a great job rallying from an 0-5 deficit to the White Sox to maintain their two-game lead on the Twins. It's all going to hinge on that four-game series starting Monday.

But the NL wild card is now also at two games with the Cards beating the Rockies and the Braves beating the Nationals. The big difference is that these two teams don't face head to head, so there will be a lot of scoreboard watching in Atlanta and Denver.

[jimsumner]

Swisher, Cabrera, one of those switch-hitting outfielders. :)

I stand corrected.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Jim, you are usually right when you correct me, but not in this case. It was Melky Cabrera who hit the line drive (Swisher had walked on the previous at bat, loading the bases):

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2009/09/25/3317754-lester-leaves-game-after-struck-near-right-knee?category=sports

Good news for the Red Sox. Lester said the injury is not as bad as had been reported and that he'll take his regular start next week.

BD and I talked about Melky's liner off Lester's leg in the LTE.

As one who has twice taken batted line drives off the lower leg/shin, and those were "just" soft balls, not a baseball hit by a major league player, it will be several days before Lester wants to throw again. Off the quad is not nearly as bad as if it hit him in the knee (or shin!), but still, the swelling and soreness take several days to subside, to say nothing of the mental aspect (gun shyness) of wanting to get back out there.

[jimsumner]

Still, some drama left. Tigers and Twins start a huge four-game series tomorrow. And the NL wild-card is getting close. Given how many Braves fans we have on this board, this one should get some attention.

But the Yanks do look pretty good going into the post-season. Imagine a Yankees-Dodgers series. What's the over/under on how soon we get sick of Joe Torre v. Yankees articles?

[Bob Green]

Imagine a Yankees-Dodgers series.

I'd rather imagine a Yankees-Cardinals series.

[blazindw]

I'd rather imagine a Yankees-Cardinals series.

Lord willing, a Tigers-Cards rematch. We owe them one. We also have to beat the Twins first.

[throatybeard]

I'd rather imagine a Cardinals-not AL East series. The AL East is something you just sort of wish you never had to hear of again if you're not in that division. Well, I liked Toronto back in the day.

As Bob points out there have been a few classic Cardinals-Yankees WSes. And I guess a Cardinals-RS series in 2004, not terribly compelling from a neutral standpoint, a sweep.

I am still hoping the Braves can pull out the WC miracle though.

[Mal]

Despite fear of jinxing it all, I'll note the Twins won the first half of the rain delay induced doubleheader against the Tigers today, and now sit 1 game back. Still probably need to win two of the next three and have it even up going to the weekend to have a good chance. They have to face Grienke again this weekend, and the Tigers get to host the long past mailing it in White Sox, so they can't count on a sweep to go with Detroit losing two of three.

Kudos to the Twins for winning 12 of 14 to get back in this despite not having Morneau or Crede and having two emergency callups and Carl Pavano in the rotation. I'm not sure how they're doing this, other than Cuddyer's been red hot and Mauer's been doing his thing. That said, this is perhaps the most meaningless divisional race in recent memory, as the winner earns a chance to face the much better, much better rested, home field enjoying Yankees. I know, anything can happen, 5 game series, that's why the play the games, blah blah blah, but the only situation in which the AL Central champ has much of a chance against this vintage of pinstripe is if the Tigers put away the Twins before the weekend (so they can rest Verlander, who could actually give the Yankees problems). And obviously I can't pull for that. The Twins just can't hang with NY right now - in addition to missing half the infield and 60% of the Opening Day rotation, they have a severe (and by "severe" I mean "of epic and crippling proportion"), apparently incurable mental block against the Yankees. I'm not reverse weauxing, just facing reality.

I suspect that, as has all too often been the case this past decade, I'll be forced to swallow my lingering disgust with all things Rally Monkey and pull for the Angels to win the AL. I'd kind of like to see an LA/LA Series just to cheese off the East Coast.

[InSpades]

I don't think playing until sunday will impact the Tigers that much if they go on to face the Yankees. The Yankees are most likely going to pick the series that starts on Wednesday. Which means that the Tigers can pitch Jackson in games 1 and 4, Verlander in 2 and 5 and Porcello in game 3. Not much different than pitching Verlander in games 1 and 4 really. If the Yankees pick the other series it doesn't change anything for Verlander (he can still pitch 2 and 5) they would just need to find someone else to pitch game 4 (but so would the Yankees). The way CC is pitching, the Tigers might prefer to have Verlander not match up with him.

[tommy]

I don't think playing until sunday will impact the Tigers that much if they go on to face the Yankees. The Yankees are most likely going to pick the series that starts on Wednesday. Which means that the Tigers can pitch Jackson in games 1 and 4, Verlander in 2 and 5 and Porcello in game 3. Not much different than pitching Verlander in games 1 and 4 really. If the Yankees pick the other series it doesn't change anything for Verlander (he can still pitch 2 and 5) they would just need to find someone else to pitch game 4 (but so would the Yankees). The way CC is pitching, the Tigers might prefer to have Verlander not match up with him.

What do you mean the series the Yankees are "going to pick?" They don't select the start date of their series; MLB does. Did I misunderstand you? Also, if the Tigers want Verlander to start Game 1, they can just hold him out from now until then. He pitched on Tuesday, beating Minnesota. Assuming the Tigers can now hold off the Twins without him (they're up 3 with 4 to play), he doesn't need to pitch again until the playoffs, and he'd be on a full week's rest or so, which could be just what the doctor ordered after all the pitches he made on Tuesday at the end of a long regular season.

[YourLandlord]

What do you mean the series the Yankees are "going to pick?" They don't select the start date of their series; MLB does. Did I misunderstand you? Also, if the Tigers want Verlander to start Game 1, they can just hold him out from now until then. He pitched on Tuesday, beating Minnesota. Assuming the Tigers can now hold off the Twins without him (they're up 3 with 4 to play), he doesn't need to pitch again until the playoffs, and he'd be on a full week's rest or so, which could be just what the doctor ordered after all the pitches he made on Tuesday at the end of a long regular season.

No, as best record in AL, the Yankees do indeed pick the series they want -- the A or B option, which has different off-day schedules.

[InSpades]

I'm not sure how long this has been in effect, but it's been atleast a few years. I believe it as always the American League team with the best record (the national league teams play on the same days). It's just another slight edge for the team that finishes the regular season with the best record. I think in a Tigers-Yankees series it's not going to make much of a difference. I think both teams have significantly more confidence in their 1 through 3 starters than their #4. The Yankees 4th best starter right now is probably Chad Gaudin (which is kinda scary). Although if your 4th starter is your biggest worry going into the postseason I think you are in pretty good shape.

[Bostondevil]

Go Sox!!!!! The wild card was invented to get the Sox into the playoffs, right? Six of seven years. I'll take it. I have tickets to the last game of the regular season at Fenway on Sunday. I'm rooting for some late season call up to pitch a no-hitter. It could happen! Three years ago, after my kids insisted that we not sit through another minute of what turned out to be a 3 hour rain delay, the Sox pitcher (I think it was Kason Gabbard before the trade but I'm not sure) pitched 6 perfect innings in a rain-shortened game. No, I didn't get to see it. Sigh. Darn kids!

[jimsumner]

Well, we can forget the Yankees this October.

Sports Illustrated put Mariano Rivera on this week's cover. Can anyone say three blown saves?

[YourLandlord]

Sports Illustrated put Mariano Rivera on this week's cover. Can anyone say three blown saves?

In the ALDS? That would be great.

If you're a real baseball fan, you will absolutely love this video. This is what I love about baseball -- the games within the game, that usually only the players know is going on

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/joe_mauer_tips_pitches/

[Duvall]

If you're a real baseball fan, you will absolutely love this video. This is what I love about baseball -- the games within the game, that usually only the players know is going on

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/joe_mauer_tips_pitches/

Well, now I definitely think he's the MVP.

[YourLandlord]

Well, now I definitely think he's the MVP.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4522901


The video circulated through the Minnesota clubhouse before Thursday afternoon's game at Comerica Park. Although Kubel characterized the video as "funny," Morneau took offense at the notion that Mauer was stealing signs. The Twins say that Mauer habitually fiddles with his helmet regardless of whether he's standing on first, second or third base.

Although it's common practice for baserunners to try to steal signs from second base to help a hitter be aware of the type of ensuing pitch or location, it's generally done subtly for fear of retribution. Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said Mauer's helmet-touching display was so obvious that it would have ensured one of his teammates being drilled by a fastball in response.

"If you're stealing signs and you're using your hands on your helmet, I guarantee you, somebody would get killed," Gardenhire said. "That's not the way you steal signs."

hmmm... are we seeing what we're being told to see in this video?

[Mal]

It's kind of funny that this has gotten more interest than the Zapruder film today in certain circles (mostly in AL Central territory). From my perspective:

1. What a dog bites man non-story. Baserunner knows signs, relays them to batter. Um, so?

2. Humorous and telling that the original posting at youtube was titled something along the lines of "Joe Mauer Tips Pitches (Cheating)" when, of course, he's not tipping pitches, he's stealing signs, and doing so is in no way, shape or form cheating, even under the game's unspoken rules. Why else do pitchers and catchers change their sign sequence with a guy on second?

3. I'm not entirely sure I buy it, anyway. For one thing, Mauer does have a habit of being fairly tic-y, if you will, on the bases. Not relief pitcher OCD level, but he moves around a lot, and especially adjusts his helmet a lot. The timing on a couple of pitches was suspicious, I guess. However, there are a couple cases in the video where he touches his helmet before Gerald Laird can even get through his sequence. Also, the supposed signal to Kubel on at least one pitch doesn't synch up with what was actually thrown (I suppose he could have just missed it, but that seems unlikely). The explanation that Mauer just didn't see the sign on another pitch where he didn't relay any of the signs to the batter being described is mighty convenient. The statement that at one point you can see Kubel shifting his vision to Mauer is totally unsupported by the film. Finally, if, as the video compiler suggests, Verlander and Laird knew what was up, then why on Earth didn't they do what every other battery in history has done prior to Tuesday night and have a quick chat on the mound?

4. Gardenhire might just be acting intentionally coy about the whole thing, but he does have a point. Back when I was playing, if we had a grasp on the opposing catcher's signs, we'd be more subtle than tapping our helmet or nose. Quickly clenching a fist, turning toes slightly in one direction, whatever. You don't want the centerfielder to see what you're doing. It was more out of not wanting to give up the secret that you knew the signs than fear of retribution at the low levels I played, though.

That said, there were a few times, facing pitchers with questionable mental fortitude, I recall calling out the pitch from the dugout while the guy was in the windup or just broke their stretch. Even if they confabbed with the catcher, we knew they were spending a lot of mental energy worrying about whether or not we'd stolen the new signs the next time. That was probably more valuable than for a batter to know what was coming a moment before it left the pitcher's hand. Maybe sort of bush league, I guess, but, you know, don't be so obvious with the signs next time. Same advice goes to Verlander and Laird.

[tommy]

No, as best record in AL, the Yankees do indeed pick the series they want -- the A or B option, which has different off-day schedules.

Wow. You're right. I checked it. I consider myself a fairly close observer of sports, and have been for most of my life, and yet I had somehow never heard of this. Weird. I consider myself corrected, and educated! Thanks.

[JasonEvans]

hmmm... are we seeing what we're being told to see in this video?

I dunno. It could be true, but that video is hardly proof. I could easily see it being a coincidence.

--Jason "if it is real, I have no problem with it and think anger/retribution toward Mauer and the Twins would be absurd" Evans

[pfrduke]

I dunno. It could be true, but that video is hardly proof. I could easily see it being a coincidence.

--Jason "if it is real, I have no problem with it and think anger/retribution toward Mauer and the Twins would be absurd" Evans

Other than that Detroit (or any team that the Twins are playing when he does it) would be justified for throwing at him.

[JasonEvans]

Other than that Detroit (or any team that the Twins are playing when he does it) would be justified for throwing at him.

Why? Did he break any unspoken rules of baseball? I thought guys on 2nd base are supposed to try to steal signs. What crime did he commit that the rest of baseball would find objectionable?

Frankly, if he was stealing signs and everyone could tell (as the video alleges), then the Tiger's catcher needs to go back to high school baseball to figure out how to switch up signs and indicators when a runner is on 2nd base. This is really routine stuff.

-Jason "I think people give Mauer too much credit here-- he may be smart, but he is not smart enough to steal signs this effectively" Evans

[Mal]

Agreed with Jason. Just to add to his "in between my names" last comment, it's tough to pick it up that quickly. If the signs had been stolen, it was probably done earlier in the game from the bench or by the third base coach, and then shared amongst the team, so Mauer wasn't so much as stealing the signs as just reading them. He may have had to figure out the key to the "guy on second" sequencing, though.

Anyway, to change the subject, the whole thing reminds me in a circuitous way of Crash Davis just telling batters what Nuke was going to throw. "Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me...speak well."

[Olympic Fan]

Why? Did he break any unspoken rules of baseball? I thought guys on 2nd base are supposed to try to steal signs. What crime did he commit that the rest of baseball would find objectionable?

Frankly, if he was stealing signs and everyone could tell (as the video alleges), then the Tiger's catcher needs to go back to high school baseball to figure out how to switch up signs and indicators when a runner is on 2nd base. This is really routine stuff.

-Jason "I think people give Mauer too much credit here-- he may be smart, but he is not smart enough to steal signs this effectively" Evans

Stealing signs from the bench or the third base coach doing it or a runner at second base doing it is usually considered just normal baseball behavior ... however, the idea of throwing at a player who effectively steals signs is also part of baseball's long established mores.

The whole idea that throwing at a batter in certain situations (he's just hit a home run in the previous at bat ... the guy batting in front of him has hit a home run ... he's digging in against you) is one of those things that's going by the wayside ... largely, I think, because pitchers don't know how to throw at batters any more -- you've got to throw such a pitch at the body, not the head. Plunk 'em on the butt.

[Don't get me started on the whole idea of batters covering themselves with armor, then leaning over the plate and getting mad when a pitcher comes inside]

BTW: When I say that stealing signs is an accepted behavior in baseball, I must mention that there are limits. Putting a guy in the CF scoreboard with a spyglass and an electric buzzer to the dugout (as the Giants did during the 1951 pennant race and as the Tigers did during Ty Cobb's entire career) is cheating ... not acceptable behavior.

PS At least by winning the final, the Twins stayed alive in the AL Central. Going into the weekend, that's the only race left -- the Tigers' magic number is two with three games (for both teams) left.

[cato]

Going into the weekend, that's the only race left -- the Tigers' magic number is two with three games (for both teams) left.

Does the race for NL West somehow not count as a race, simply because the Dodgers and Rockies have both secured playoff bids?

[Olympic Fan]

Does the race for NL West somehow not count as a race, simply because the Dodgers and Rockies have both secured playoff bids?

Fair enough ... the Rockies could still catch the Dodgers in the NL West ... but you are right, it's a pretty minor point, since the loser of the race (almost certainly the Rockies) will be the NL Wild Card.

[cato]

Fair enough ... the Rockies could still catch the Dodgers in the NL West ... but you are right, it's a pretty minor point, since the loser of the race (almost certainly the Rockies) will be the NL Wild Card.

It wasn't so long ago that the Rockies put "almost certainly" in its place.

[Olympic Fan]

Well, I have to admit the Rockies are making it interesting. By winning 4-3 in LA last night, they got to within one day in the NL West ... the Dodgers have to win one of the last two to win the division. The Rockies need to win both. With the two teams playing each other, there cannot be a tie.

The Tigers/Twins also kept it interesting Friday night -- the Twins winning big against KC and the bTigers bombing big time to Jake Peevy and the White Sox.

It's a one game gap with two to play. The Twins face a tough task today, going against KC's Grienke. Otherwise, I'd rather be playing KC than the White Sox.

Obviously, this one can end in a tie. Detroit's magic number is one to clinch a tie and two to win the division outright.

If there is a one-game playoff, it will be at Minnesota (they won the season series with the Tigers).

[weezie]

Miguel Cabrera, new "King of the Pop-Ups"......

Still killing me here...........

And the thought of a play-off in MN's dome (the last game to ever, ever, ever be played there) the Tiger's least favorite venue is truly sick-making.

Thanks to SI for once again screwing everything up.

[jimsumner]

"And the thought of a play-off in MN's dome (the last game to ever, ever, ever be played there"

It's not the last game there if Minnesota wins.

[Olympic Fan]

Well, the Dodgers finally put the Rockies away with a big 7th inning last night, clinching both the NL West and the homefield advantage throughout the NL playoffs ... the Rockies get in as a wild card, although they may have lost De La Rosa, who pulled something in the fourth inning and had to leave that game.

That leaves Minnesota-Detroit as the last race ... and they are dead even going into today's last regular season game. The Tigers are going to pitch Verlander today in an effort to stop the slide (three straight losses since going up three games on the Twins last Wednesday). The Twins managed to beat Greinke (well, he didn't take the loss, but he did give up four runs in the 5-4 KC loss) on Saturday. Now they go with Pavano today.

I have no idea who would pitch for either team if they have to meet in the Dome Monday. Jackson pitched Friday night for the Tigers ... I doubt he comes back on two days rest ...

As a Yankee fan, I obviously love seeing the two teams vying to meet us in the playoffs playing an extra game. But in Detroit's case, it doesn't look like it will mess up their pitching rotation that much -- Jackson will be rested to start the opener (unless they use him on very short rest in the playoff game, which I doubt) and Verlander will be ready to come back for game 2 (and 5, if necessary.

Not sure what the Twins rotation looks like at this point ... just as I'm not sure which team I'd rather face in the ALDS at this point.

[pfrduke]

I have no idea who would pitch for either team if they have to meet in the Dome Monday. Jackson pitched Friday night for the Tigers ... I doubt he comes back on two days rest ...

The playoff game would be Tuesday, thanks to the Vikings-Packers MNF game. Means an extra day of rest for Jackson, who would probably start. For the Twins, my bet would be Baker.

[pfrduke]

The Tigers would also have Rick Porcello on full rest on Tuesday.

[YourLandlord]

Twins gonna have to win.

[pfrduke]

Twins gonna have to win.

The four-run lead after 2 is a good start.

[weezie]

Feeling quite apprehensive today as the clock ticks towards Tuesday afternoon.

The entire Tiger season rests on a 20 year old shoulder...

[blazindw]

Feeling quite apprehensive today as the clock ticks towards Tuesday afternoon.

The entire Tiger season rests on a 20 year old shoulder...

And, if you read CNN or Time Magazine or most other national news media outlets, the fate of the economic future of Detroit as well...If I hear another story about how much Detroit needs this win for the sake of the city's future, I'm gonna snap. The kid already has enough pressure.

[YourLandlord]

And, if you read CNN or Time Magazine or most other national news media outlets, the fate of the economic future of Detroit as well...If I hear another story about how much Detroit needs this win for the sake of the city's future, I'm gonna snap. The kid already has enough pressure.

Seriously. First it was Michigan State, then it was the Red Wings, then it was the Lions win last week...

[Mal]

God, I'll miss you, Metrodome, you ugly old dump, you.

Oly, I still think you'd rather face Minnesota. If they win tomorrow, they'll have an awful lot of momentum, certainly. But, they're still missing Morneau, they're still without a third baseman, they're still without their primary setup guy, and the rotation is still a shambles. More importantly, the Twins cannot beat the Yankees, under any circumstances, in the Gardy Era. You think I'm joking, but I'm not. Even the Royals, even the Indians, even the Rangers fare significantly better against NY than we do. Since Gardenhire took over in 2002, the Twins have played a pretty respectable .562 ball overall against everyone else but New York. Against the Yankees, they're now 12 and 40 in that period. I repeat, 12 and 40. That's just too much discrepency to be explained by the talent disparity. And how about at Yankee Stadium? 3 and ... 23. Including the four consecutive crushers this May that righted the Yankees ship when previously all anyone could talk about was how they'd lost homefield advantage moving across the street and what's wrong with the Yankees? and omigod they're going to miss the playoffs again! The Twins coming to town for a 4-game series was the best thing that could possibly have happened to the Yankees at that point in the season. Also, we sha'nt forget the 2004 ALCS, wherein the Twins were a Corey Koskie ground rule double not bouncing over the fence in the left field corner of Yankee Stadium away from leaving there with a 2-0 lead and Santana slotted for Game 4 at home. Even when they play well there, they can't beat the Yankees.

Anyway, should they manage to win tomorrow, you'd see Blackburn, most likely, on Wednesday. It'd be his second consecutive start on 3 days' rest, although he seems to pitch well on short rest in big game situations (witness outdueling Greinke Saturday and his Game 163 performance against the White Sox last year). On the other hand, he's the kind of contact pitcher lineups like New York's love. The singles he gives up to Toronto turn into doubles, and the doubles into homers, against great hitting teams. He entered the season as our fourth starter but has had to become the number 2 guy and, before Baker figured things out late in June, the staff ace. That's asking a lot for a guy with a 4.02 ERA. Also, he was awful in July and August before somehow calming down in the stretch run, so he could certainly revert at any time.

Then it would be Pavano on Friday, and I'm sure there'd be sufficient motivation to shell him. And just like that, you're in position to get the historic last baseball win in the Metrodome.

[YourLandlord]

Also, we sha'nt forget the 2004 ALCS, wherein the Twins were a Corey Koskie ground rule double not bouncing over the fence in the left field corner of Yankee Stadium away from leaving there with a 2-0 lead and Santana slotted for Game 4 at home.

ORLY?

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2008/10/15/RED-SOX-VICTORY__1224078695_6201.jpg

[Mal]

D'oh! "D" for "C," sorry.

[weezie]

And, if you read CNN or Time Magazine or most other national news media outlets, the fate of the economic future of Detroit as well...If I hear another story about how much Detroit needs this win for the sake of the city's future, I'm gonna snap. The kid already has enough pressure.

Yeah, enough already with the constant bleating as to how everything always hinges on one particular event that the media deems of utmost importance. Looks like Chitown will still continue to exist sans the Olys.

[pfrduke]

Wow. Orlando Cabrera, of all people.

As a not-entirely-unrelated aside, why is Zach Miner pitching to the heart of Minnesota's order in a high-leverage situation?

[Jim3k]

Well that was a grinder. Congrats to the Twins.

[duketaylor]

I've been a lifelong Tiger fan, memories go back to about '67. Tonight was tough, ample opportunities and couldn't finish. Doesn't hurt as bad as Duke NCAA tourney losses, but it pains me. Gotta finish, can't let runners on third with one out not score. I still believe in the "suicide squeeze," but not many managers do, especially in the Am League. I'll watch the playoffs and root against the Yankees as always. I just wish my team was playing them. FWIW, Verlander should win the Am League Cy Young.

[blazindw]

I really cannot believe this just happened. HBP = run = up 6-5 going into that bottom half. No HBP = no run = ballgame in bottom half of inning. I'm REALLY angry about this game...and I don't normally get angry. I could say more, but the profanity filter will probably ban me.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[throatybeard]

I'm with you, Wine.

[Mal]

Well, first off, sorry to all you Tigers fans. I'd much, much rather do this to the White Sox. Seriously, I feel for Tigers fans. You stuck with them through an awful lot of absolutely atrocious years before turning it around about 5 years ago, and you deserve to not collapse in September.

That said...wooooooohoooooooooo!!! Amazing. I don't even care how badly the Yankees own us and will crush us starting tomorrow afternoon. That's five division titles in 8 years, and I'm celebrating tonight. Man, I love being able to root for the Twins.

[Jim3k]

I really cannot believe this just happened. HBP = run = up 6-5 going into that bottom half. No HBP = no run = ballgame in bottom half of inning. I'm REALLY angry about this game...and I don't normally get angry. I could say more, but the profanity filter will probably ban me.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

As an A's fan, I have no dog in the fight (except anybody but the Yankees or the Sawks) but that was a helluva game. I actually think, even though he lost the game, that Rodney was the PotG. He's a flame-throwing closer, not a middle distance reliever. He threw his heart out and could have won.

Both teams made big time mistakes. Raburn misplayed a fly and turned a single into a triple. Made up for it later with a throwout at the plate. But Casilla didn't tag up correctly and lost 1-1/2 to 2 steps. Might have made it, but maybe not. Later made up for it with the GWH. Delmon Young threw to the wrong base. Granderson misread a line drive out and got doubled off. (He might have been safe, but there was no good replay. No one argued, so I guess it was a good call.)

Lots of stuff. I don't think the ump's missed call on the pitch nicking Inge's(?) hanging out shirt was any more serious than any of the other stuff. All could have led to an earlier end.

Plus, former A (hey former whatever) Orlando Cabrera hits a 2 run HR, but later wants to argue strikes with the umpire...

Quite a game with a lot of stuff happening.

All I can say is -- Come back to the Metrodome and win it there.

[throatybeard]

I just can't wait till the Metrodome is a pile of concrete rubble. Don't make me root for the Yankees...

[weezie]

I haven't felt this bad since......oh yeah, the collapse in the World Series!

The shot of GM Dombrowski as he watch the Minnies celebration pretty much mirrored my own feelings. Just shucked and gutted.

[rasputin]

I've been a lifelong Tiger fan, memories go back to about '67. Tonight was tough, ample opportunities and couldn't finish. Doesn't hurt as bad as Duke NCAA tourney losses, but it pains me. Gotta finish, can't let runners on third with one out not score. I still believe in the "suicide squeeze," but not many managers do, especially in the Am League. I'll watch the playoffs and root against the Yankees as always. I just wish my team was playing them. FWIW, Verlander should win the Am League Cy Young.

If Greinke doesn't win the Cy Young, there should be an investigation. It isn't even close.

[rasputin]

I just can't wait till the Metordome is a pile of concrete rubble. Don't make me root for the Yankees...

Well Throaty, I have fond memories of the Metrodome. I saw my first (and so far, only) All-Star game there in 1985. And I was lucky enough to score a couple of tickets to the NCAA finals in 2001. Even in top row nosebleeds, it was a great experience.

[Mal]

Lest anyone get the wrong impression, it's not like the Dome's about to be demolished. Seems like a lot of people think it's closing for business when the baseball season's over. The Vikings still have two+ seasons left on their lease. It's an acceptable venue for professional football, actually. Even if the Vikes leave (new stadium, L.A., whatever) after 2011, I don't know that it would be torn down, at least not soon. It hosts a ton of other events, it keeps the town in the running for Super Bowls and Final Fours (and regionals), Gopher baseball still uses it until it's warm outside, and it's pretty much paid off at this point. It would no longer be much of a revenue producer without the Vikings, but it's actually a pretty important civic location in a place where December-March you can't do much in terms of large gatherings outdoors.

It's just that other baseball teams won't have to endure its horrors anymore, and the Big Ten's football teams won't have the luxury of playing in basically a neutral site in Minnesota anymore.

[InSpades]

If Greinke doesn't win the Cy Young, there should be an investigation. It isn't even close.

Greinke definitely deserves it. And if he doesn't get it then Felix Hernandez would get it. Giving it to Verlander would be a travesty. Great pitcher but his ERA is 3.45. Greinke is at a major league leading 2.16. He's had one of the best pitching years in recent memory if you ask me. It's the best ERA for an AL starting pitcher since Pedro Martinez in 2000. Incidentally that was an incredible year for Pedro. The next best ERA was Clemens who was more than double what Pedro put up (1.74 vs. 3.70).

[cspan37421]

From a lifelong Tiger fan: this hurt. Having said that, we weren't going anywhere had we won, anyway. We didn't deserve to.

I didn't stay up to see Inge get "hit" by the pitch and not have it called to force in a go-ahead run. But I did see a ridiculous pitch called a strike - I think it would have forced in a run in an earlier inning (8th?), but I can't recall for sure. But it nearly hit the batter and it was called a strike (no he didn't fail to check a swing or anything like that).

So they COULD have won. Do I think the SHOULD have won? No. The best team won, and should have won even without the umpire's help. I've seen Rodney blow many a game - that he was on the mound when the Twins plated their 6th came as no surprise to me. Rayburn - he was in for defense! Stupid, stupid play, and poorly executed to boot. If you're going to go for it on a bouncy turf field, be prepared to at least knock it down! If not it'll bounce past you far .... BTW, his throw to the plate was nice but IMO it didn't "make up" anything at all. He was already largely responsible for costing the team the win by putting the tying run on 3rd.

And last but not least, the Tigers probably wouldn't have even had to play last night if their star slugger wasn't out severely drunk last weekend fraternizing with the opposition! (for those who don't know he played very poorly against the WSox leaving many on base).

I feel bad for Verlander and some of the other guys who deserve to be seen in the playoffs on the big stage. But too many guys on the team just weren't nearly good enough, and there aren't enough remaining stars to carry all that dead weight.

The Twins may be very hot right now but keep in mind they finished against a mediocre Tigers team and a bad KC team. There's every reason (on paper) to expect the Yankees to run through them like a buzzsaw.