Lost finale: The Incident

[JasonEvans]

At 10:45, my wife said, "I thought there were going to be some big surprises-- a couple 'Holy @!#@^!!' moments."

And 15 minutes later, after we saw Locke's body fall out of the crate and then saw Juliet explode the bomb, she said, "Holy @!#@^!! Do we really have to wait 9 months to find out what is next?!?!?"

I feel like we got a number of answers or at least explanations of some stuff. I still think that Juliet/Jack/the bomb caused The Incident. They did not undo the future, they created it. If they can change the future, it creates too many impossible to explain time travel paradoxes. The show won't go there.

-Jason "I need more time to digest this, but WOW!!" Evans

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I reiterate from last week's thread: Jacob is Forrest Gump. He's everywhere!

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

It looks like the guy from the beginning of the show when we first saw Jacob somehow was in a body that looked like Lock. It seems perhaps that he has wanted to kill Jacob for hundreds of years but something was preventing him from doing that. That would explain how Locke seemed so different and seemed to know more after the resurrection.

[dcarp23]

It looks like the guy from the beginning of the show when we first saw Jacob somehow was in a body that looked like Lock. It seems perhaps that he has wanted to kill Jacob for hundreds of years but something was preventing him from doing that. That would explain how Locke seemed so different and seemed to know more after the resurrection.

This might be obvious, but I assume this is the same guy who appeared as Christian Shepherd, Yemi (sp?) and any other dead folks who came back to life. I'm really looking forward to finding out who this other dude is, and why having Ben kill him was the result of any sort of loophole.

[InSpades]

New Locke = Smoke Monster?

When Ben tried to call the Smoke Monster it was Locke who came. It was also the Smoke Monster who told Ben to do whatever Locke told him. Potentially the Smoke Monster can take the form of anyone dead on the island? Christian, Locke, Ben's daughter...

Meanwhile the flashbacks of Jacob show him interacting with (and touching?) the crash survivors. In some ways he is influencing the future by making small differences in the past.

This kind of sets up a good vs. evil thing. Jacob = good, Smoke Monster = evil.

I dunno... that's all I've got.

[A-Tex Devil]

So is the war between Jacob and dude from beginning (who is likely Smokey)? The only thing I don't get is why "Locke" (inhabited by the dude from the beginning of the ep - Silas from Deadwood) needed directions to Jacob's lair when it was clear at the beginning he knew where it was.

But I think he's the same "entity" that inhabited Christian's body and told Locke he had to die. For whatever reason, it didn't work when he was Christian, so he's trying one more time. I'm still a little confused as they've thrown yet ANOTHER angle into Lost, which is fine, but now we have two separate stories going on -- 1. The "Locke"/Others/Jacob storyline and 2. The 1977 folks getting back to 2007. It seems that they are completely different plotlines now. One is not dependent on other (assuming "whatever happened, happened") at all.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Need to let this crystallize some more. Great episode, although I said "F You JJ" when it cut to white with ZERO reveal of what might have happened when bomb went off. By far this was the biggest cliffhanger they've left us with. Bigger than the hatch.

- Maybe the dude from the beginning was also a dead guy the smoke monster took the form of.
- What language was on the wall in the first scene where Jacob was weaving and what did it say?
- What did Richard say in response to the "what is in the shadow of the statue"? What language was it?

[JasonEvans]

My wild-#!% theory--

Two Egyptian gods live on the Island. One is good (Jacob) and when we first see him, he is dressed largely in white. One is evil and when we first see him, he is wearing all black. The evil one may be Anubis, the Egyptian god of the dead.

Anubis wants to kill Jacob, but is not allowed to do it himself. However, if he can manipulate someone else into doing it... well, that would be finding a loophole.

In Egyptian mythology, one of the jobs of Anubis is to judge the dead. The Anubis we see on the island often takes the form of the smoke monster and judges people. Anubis is also able to take the form of the dead, which is what he does when he takes the form of Christian or Ben's daughter.

I suspect that others have already come up a theory similar to this. But that is what I am going on right now.

--Jason "the 70s Lostaways were sent forward in time at the end of the episode-- I am convinced of that" Evans

[DukeUsul]

I ws thinking along the same lines Jason. Except I'm thinking of the Greek Fates (Moirae). The weavers of your destiny. Clotho spins the cloth of life (see Jacob weaving inside the foot), Lachesis measures the cloth (Richard, taking measure of the people on the island) and Atropos cuts the cloth of life - Jacob's nemesis - who is also smokey, the one who judges and kills. This would also explain why Richard is also immortal.

Anyway, your explanation obviously takes into account all the Egyptian hieroglyphs we've seen, although I found it interesting that everything inside Jacob's room in the foot seemed to be in Greek.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

I ws thinking along the same lines Jason. Except I'm thinking of the Greek Fates (Moirae). The weavers of your destiny. Clotho spins the cloth of life (see Jacob weaving inside the foot), Lachesis measures the cloth (Richard, taking measure of the people on the island) and Atropos cuts the cloth of life - Jacob's nemesis - who is also smokey, the one who judges and kills. This would also explain why Richard is also immortal.

Anyway, your explanation obviously takes into account all the Egyptian hieroglyphs we've seen, although I found it interesting that everything inside Jacob's room in the foot seemed to be in Greek.

If it were as simple as Locke being in the form of the smoke monster (who we are assuming wants to kill Jacob), and if the smoke monster can take shape of any dead person on the island, could we not assume that if the smoke monster wanted to kill Jacob it could have done so a long time ago? I think the current Locke is its own entity, not that of the smoke monster. I could very well be wrong on that.

I also loved the quote, "What about you, Ben?" which at that point made the one character who looked like he knew everything seem like he absolutely knew nothing almost in a juvenile type way.

PS, Where is Claire? I almost think the longer shes away the more important role she will end up playing. Aaron as well.

[BluDevilGal]

The interactions of Jacob and the other guy (what should we call him? not!Locke??) definitely make me think of two lesser gods using humans as pawns in their personal feud. I'm wondering what the actual loophole was because it seems a little lame if all he had to do was find someone other than himself to kill Jacob.

Locke being in the box was totally unexpected! I love how that was shot, coming over the top of the box in the same way as the reveal last season of Locke in the coffin, but this time having the body being unceremoniously dumped on it's side so the shot had to pan even farther around before the face was revealed!

The writing on the tapestry definitely appeared to be Greek letters, but they were a little hard to read, and I was intent on watching the episode so I didn't take the time to try and figure out what it said yet. And what was the answer to the statue riddle? Something in Latin?

I also like how both Ben and Locke were brought down to the level of mere humans, rather than someone "special"... Ben by Jacob asking "What about you?"... and Locke by the reveal that he is actually dead.

Jacob came across as completely detestable, yet I still didn't want him to be killed... but he seemed so calm and smug about Ben being there to kill him that I'm not sure that he's actually dead.

So much more I could say about this episode, but I'll leave at that for now!

[riverside6]

Richard said in Latin..."He who will protect/save us all." according to LostPedia.

[JasonEvans]

Jacob came across as completely detestable, yet I still didn't want him to be killed... but he seemed so calm and smug about Ben being there to kill him that I'm not sure that he's actually dead.


Why did you not like Jacob? He seemed calm and serene and appeared to have a belief in the fundamental goodness of humanity. The scene where he is bringing the Black Rock to the Island and the other guy says, "why bother, they'll just kill each other in the end," where Jacob relied that they had nopt reached "the end" (or something like that) showed me a level of faith in mankind that represented something good.

I was a bit confused at what Jacob was doing in all the character's lives. At first I thought he was intervening to prevent bad stuff from happening-- to make sure that our characters made certain choices. He saved Kate from a life of crime, he kept Sayid from being killed, he may have helped Sawyer deal with his pain. I am not sure what he did to Sun and Jin but his words of advice were good ones for a couple that would grow to be troubled and distant from each other. The candy bar for Jack was strange and seemed irrelevant. Jacob's interactions with Ilana, Locke, and Hurley though did not seem to be guiding their lives in some direction or anything like that. I found it puzzling-- though I certainly saw Jacob as a force for goodness.

Jacob's actions in the final scene with Ben and fake Locke was very strange. I expected him to try to convince Ben that he was being manipulated or something like that. Instead, Jacob treated Ben with such disdain that Ben almost had to stab him. The, "what about you, Ben?" line was certainly not something you would say to someone who held your fate in his hands. The moment Jacob said that, Ben's course of action was sealed.

I like the idea of Richard being one of the gods. If this were Roman mythology, he would be Mercury, the messenger of the gods.

--Jason "think about how Locke's new identity changes so much of what we've seen this season!!" Evans

[riverside6]

I thought Jacob's purpose with the characters was simply to bring them to the island (similar to the boat).

[Pacer]

Like Jason, I quickly noticed the white of Jacob and the black of the other (who I will call Esau).

My wife has been talking about the story of Jacob and Esau for a couple of weeks now and trying to apply it to Lost. In the finale, my wife noted that Ben's dialogue regarding "what about me" in foot (which was dialog planted by Esau/Locke) was another analog to the biblical story of J&E.

So, I've looked online to find more details of the story of J&E. The part I remembered was about Jacob getting Esau's birthright and Jacob tricking Issac into giving him a blessing meant for Esau.

The part I didn't remember was that Esau then tried many times to have Jacob killed. Esau enlisted his son to do it, but that effort failed. Esau even tried to do it himself under the guise of a meeting to make-up. "Esau had planned to kill his brother "not with arrows and bow but by [my] mouth" "and sucking his blood"; but the fact that Jacob's neck turned into ivory thwarted his intention."

So, that seems to discuss that there is some force that prevents Esau from directly killing Jacob. Thus, Esau would need to find some loophole in this in order to effect the killing.

Also, the word "loop" is in loophole. Which is again relevant to the time loop theory where events play out over and over, with small changes being made in each iteration.

Also, with respect to the white and black... note that the screen at the end with the word "LOST" was in black type on a white background as opposed to the typical reversal of that setting. Maybe indicative of the transfer of island control from Jacob to Esau.

[A-Tex Devil]

The candy bar for Jack was strange and seemed irrelevant.


One thing of note -- and another amazing Lost continuity tie in: That scene with Jack and his Dad in surgery was the same story that Jack was telling Kate as she was stitching him up in the very first episode.

And I am pretty sure that maybe "non-Locke" is PO'd because Jacob's friend Woo peed on the Dude's rug.

[JasonEvans]

I thought Jacob's purpose with the characters was simply to bring them to the island (similar to the boat).

Aside from Hurley, how did any of his other actions accomplish that? The Apollo candy bar with Jack was worthless, though Jacob said, "maybe all it needed was a little push," which is supposed to have some meaning, but would have meant nothing at all to Jack.

It is worth noting that Jacob tenderly touched each one of the folks in the flashbacks. Perhaps giving them his blessing? I also noticed that the one person who had a flashback but had no Jacob in it was Juliet. Her flashback was about her parents but we did not see Jacob at all, IIRC. Hmmmm.

--Jason "Lostpedia notes that Juliet hit the bomb with the rock 8 times. Lucky they did not make her hit it 42 times, eh?" Evans

[riverside6]

Aside from Hurley, how did any of his other actions accomplish that? The Apollo candy bar with Jack was worthless, though Jacob said, "maybe all it needed was a little push," which is supposed to have some meaning, but would have meant nothing at all to Jack.

It is worth noting that Jacob tenderly touched each one of the folks in the flashbacks. Perhaps giving them his blessing? I also noticed that the one person who had a flashback but had no Jacob in it was Juliet. Her flashback was about her parents but we did not see Jacob at all, IIRC. Hmmmm.

--Jason "Lostpedia notes that Juliet hit the bomb with the rock 8 times. Lucky they did not make her hit it 42 times, eh?" Evans

Definitely don't have the facts to back it up, just a theory.

My question was if Jacob was the person that was in the shadow of the statue that protected them, what will happen with him out of the picture?

[BluDevilGal]

Why did you not like Jacob?

He saved Kate from a life of crime, he kept Sayid from being killed, he may have helped Sawyer deal with his pain.

Interesting... I interpreted Jacob's actions very differently.

I saw his making Kate promise not to steal anymore as grimly ironic... she grows up to be a murdered and fugitive who lies, steals, and manipulates others. Giving Sawyer the pencil to finish his letter could be interpreted as encouraging him in harboring his hate and desire for revenge, especially seen in contrast with the conversation Sawyer had with the other man immediately afterwards. And Jacob distracted Sayid just at the right moment so that Nadia would be in the middle of the street alone and not paying attention to the traffic. He also sat calmly reading his book, knowing that Locke was about to be thrown from a window and become paralyzed.

To me, he came across a cold-hearted. He seems uncaring as to what trajedies and pain they might encounter in their lives as long as they end up on the island.

But I guess it's just a matter of perception, since you're interpretations of the events could just as easily be his actual intent.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Interesting... I interpreted Jacob's actions very differently.

He also sat calmly reading his book, knowing that Locke was about to be thrown from a window and become paralyzed.

To me, he came across a cold-hearted. He seems uncaring as to what trajedies and pain they might encounter in their lives as long as they end up on the island.

But I guess it's just a matter of perception.
While obviously Jacob was in the right place at the right time, hence my Forrest Gump comment, with Locke he seemed to bring him back to life after his fall. Locke was unconscious lying on the ground until Jacob touched his shoulder and Locke took a breath and opened his eyes. Maybe Locke wasn't dead, but he might have been.

[Pacer]

In that Jacob lives in the foot, it is entirely possible that his foil (black wearing/Esau/Locke body inhabiter) was actually living in the cabin. Ben and others thought they were serving Jacob, but they were going to Esau.

Richard didn't accompany Ben and Locke to the cabin... maybe they were going to the wrong place.. Once Richard was asked to take the people to Jacob, he went right for the foot.

And the line/border of potash was broken, letting Esau escape from his cabin.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

In that Jacob lives in the foot, it is entirely possible that his foil (black wearing/Esau/Locke body inhabiter) was actually living in the cabin. Ben and others thought they were serving Jacob, but they were going to Esau.

Richard didn't accompany Ben and Locke to the cabin... maybe they were going to the wrong place.. Once Richard was asked to take the people to Jacob, he went right for the foot.

And the line/border of potash was broken, letting Esau escape from his cabin.

So maybe the "Help Meeeee..." That Locke heard was Esau asking to be released. This is why I think its plausable that Esau is not actually the smoke monster. From the entirety of the Lost story - while it may very well related to the Story of E&J... it seems as if that would only compose of one element of the central plot. I think it the end we will have something completely original that may intertwine a number of legends together at the same time.

[BluDevilGal]

While obviously Jacob was in the right place at the right time, hence my Forrest Gump comment, with Locke he seemed to bring him back to life after his fall. Locke was unconscious lying on the ground until Jacob touched his shoulder and Locke took a breath and opened his eyes. Maybe Locke wasn't dead, but he might have been.

I thought that at first too... twice zombie Locke... until the reveal that Locke hadn't actually come back to life on the island. Jacob touching him may have healed him in some way but given the fact that we have been told a few times that dead is dead, I'm thinking Locke wasn't actually dead after that fall.... just mostly dead. ;-)

[Lord Ash]

My wife, who knows of these things, was reminded me that in many eastern and middle eastern religions, babies are said to get their soul in the third month... and it seems that the women on the island who are pregnent all miscarry right around there. Does the island not allow new souls? And what about Aaron? I think he is more important than we know... Aaron in the bible was the brother of Moses and sort of his spokesman... could Aaron have some sort of future being the spokesman of... well, someone?

[Rich]

And I am pretty sure that maybe "non-Locke" is PO'd because Jacob's friend Woo peed on the Dude's rug.

Since we have to give him a name, I vote for "No-such-Locke" :D

[A-Tex Devil]

So now that this has crystallized a bit for me, I've read the interwebs, etc. etc., I've got some thoughts/conjectures. All probably will be proved wrong come January. So long post (and it will take me a bit of time to write, so I'll probably miss some additional insight up above)

- First off -- if Jacob and Esau are some kind of demi-god/deity types, I'll be a little disappointed Lost went that direction. I'll live with it and still put it in top 5 all time shows, but not my top choice for "what is the ultimate mythology."

- Is the Island some kind of Dark City like playground for Jacob? He continually brings people to the island, they get violent, he observes to see if, perhaps, any "progress" as he puts it has been made.

- So I **bet** Eloise has seen Jacob, being a former "leader." But why does she create the scenario where Esau can take on Locke's body. Did she have a falling out with Jacob at some point? Is she on Esau's side?

- I think Ben never saw Jacob because he wasn't really supposed to be the leader. He staged a coup of sorts with Widmore. Also -- I can't remember, did Widmore say that Jacob wanted them to kill baby Alex, or did Ben say Jacob didn't want them to kill baby Alex?

- Why does Esau (as Locke) make Richard guide them to the statue when he obviously had been there before? Why did he act surprised that Jacob was at the statue? A lot of people are speculating that Esau was actually the guy trapped in the cabin and was released when the ring of ashes was broken (by Locke in season 3? Did they break the ring then?). But what if it WAS Jacob that was in the cabin. The Jacob disciples expected him to be at the cabin as well.

- Speculation on smokey/Esau connection? Locke/Esau clearly knew where to go several episodes before during Ben's "judging," but I am of the mind that smokey and its manifestations are different than Esau.

Anyway, a lot more questions, but that's enough for one post.

[GDT]

A lot of people are speculating that Esau was actually the guy trapped in the cabin and was released when the ring of ashes was broken (by Locke in season 3? Did they break the ring then?). But what if it WAS Jacob that was in the cabin. The Jacob disciples expected him to be at the cabin as well.

I didn't get this either. They said they were going to show Locke's body to somebody, then they went to the cabin. I assume that somebody was Jacob. Yet their catchphrase says "He who will save us all lies in the shadow of the statue". Which I also thought was Jacob (especially because that's where he was living in the first scene).

[DukeUsul]

If it were as simple as Locke being in the form of the smoke monster (who we are assuming wants to kill Jacob), and if the smoke monster can take shape of any dead person on the island, could we not assume that if the smoke monster wanted to kill Jacob it could have done so a long time ago? I think the current Locke is its own entity, not that of the smoke monster. I could very well be wrong on that.


That would be against the rules, apparently.

[KyDevilinIL]

The widely held assumption seems to be that the "Jacob" we met last night is a good guy. I don't think there's nearly enough evidence at this point to jump to that conclusion, which so far seems based solely on clothing color and the demeanors of the two men in their opening conversation.

"Jacob" very well might be a wolf in sheep's clothing. By own baseless speculation is that he somehow wrestled control of the island away from "Esau" back in the 19th century, which is the source of "Esau's" hatred. But some unknown rule prevented "Esau" from reclaiming the island without the "loophole."

"Esau" might be the real "Jacob." But the only two people who know for sure are the two men we met last night, whichever one is which.

[A-Tex Devil]

Ripped from comment section of another blog. Like the idea:

"I think the failsafe that Desmond turned at the end of Season 2 set off another hydrogen bomb, because Dharma was following Jack's example in how to stop an Incident. If that's the case, maybe everyone near the explosion now has the same abilities that Desmond has. If so, maybe it was Jacob's plan all along to create an army of "variables"."

[johnb]

I think Jacob had big impacts not just on our characters but on minor ones. Does he find himself at the right place at the right time because he can read the future or because he both knows what is happening and can cause some behaviors? Assuming Jacob is able to subtly insert thoughts into people's heads (with the emphasis on small changes or enhanced tendencies):

Jack + candy bar is banal, but somehow making Christian act uncharacteristically wise may have contributed to Jack's overconfidence in his ability to save people, an overconfidence that is central to the show (and does lead to Jack's coaching of Kate and their early bonding about the 5 seconds).

The hidden notebook contributed to James's life of subterfuge and revenge, but it might not have become such a big deal if that guy hadn't come over to tell him not to finish the letter--it's a bit unusual for an adult to make such a comment to a kid who had just lost his parents; if he felt that strongly about it, I could imagine him taking away the letter, but he didn't do that either. Could Jacob have gotten to him? And if so, does that contribute to Sawyer's disdain for well-meaning soft-spoken do-gooders?

Kate + theft is a harbinger of her later life of crime but also perhaps her belief that a big rugged, unshaven man will rescue her (a Jack/Sawyer combo) and that a presumed peer (the kid or her mother) will let her down, and that the rules of law are made to be bent with the right currency. In her case, Jacob may have not just happened to be there, but--if the Christian theory is correct--may have alerted the store clerk, who really did not seem to be paying enough attention to ask a cute little girl to open her backpack.

Maybe he just happened to be able to get Sayid to stop for the directions, but a more subtle power would be helpful to keep Nadja in the street for the killing.

I hadn't noticed at the time, but JE is right: Juliet doesn't get a touch from Jacob in the flashback. Instead she runs away from the parental conflict. She doesn't do so in this episode, dealing with her own relationship troubles and causing the explosion. Maybe she had to work that out on the island.

Does Locke's father seem overtly, physically violent as a general rule? Isn't he more of a swindler than a murderer? Perhaps Jacob encouraged the push? Until Jacob touched him, Locke looked mighty dead to me, but he may have been as dead as Ben-the-child, who did get resurrected by the "gods."

Speaking of resurrection--what do we think Richard meant by the warning that Ben-the-child would never be the same if they allowed him to be cured by the Others? Perhaps something of Ben would be taken over by the gods?

Why would Jacob not try to talk Ben out of the murder? Seems like it would have been easy for him to do. Either he felt like the other guy had won fair and square, he wanted to be killed, or he held disdain for people despite his beneficent and distant sense of humanity.

"He who lies in the shadow of the statue": not sure which "lies" they mean. We're assuming it's Jacob, but perhaps it's someone who tells mistruths? And perhaps "Locke" is surprised at Jacob's home not because he hadn't been there before but because it was HIS old home--Jacob might have actually lived in the cabin.

Jacob and his counterpart have been at their peak of male power for centuries. Where are their kids? I'm thinking at least one of our heroes is the child of one of them. As I write this, I'm thinking that J's sidekick was tossed from the island at some point, "became" Christian and would then father both Jack and Clair, which might be how he so readily convinced Clair to join him and abandon her son.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

That would be against the rules, apparently.

I was talking more along the lines of being able to manipulate someone into killing jacob.

[JasonEvans]

In that Jacob lives in the foot, it is entirely possible that his foil (black wearing/Esau/Locke body inhabiter) was actually living in the cabin. Ben and others thought they were serving Jacob, but they were going to Esau.

Richard didn't accompany Ben and Locke to the cabin... maybe they were going to the wrong place.. Once Richard was asked to take the people to Jacob, he went right for the foot.

And the line/border of potash was broken, letting Esau escape from his cabin.

Yeah, the broken line of ash needs to be explained.

Illana and Bram and company though seemed to think they were going to see Jacob when they went to the cabin. Clearly, Jacob had left them a message in the picture of the statue and that is how they knew where to go next.

I don't think Esau/Anubis lives in the shack. He lives in "The Temple" where the black smoke exists because he controls/is the black smoke monster.

--Jason "I'll say this, we have more 'evidence' from which to figure things out than at any time in the past!" Evans

[DukeUsul]

Interesting to note that we all had assumed the statue to be Anubis, the god of the underworld. Last night we saw that it actually has a crocodile head, not a jackal's, indicating it may actually be a representation of Tawaret (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawaret). Tawaret is the demon-wife of Apep, the god of evil. Apep had power over evil at night, while Tawaret was responsible for evil during daytime.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Statue

[mr. synellinden]

Interesting to note that we all had assumed the statue to be Anubis, the god of the underworld. Last night we saw that it actually has a crocodile head, not a jackal's, indicating it may actually be a representation of Tawaret (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawaret). Tawaret is the demon-wife of Apep, the god of evil. Apep had power over evil at night, while Tawaret was responsible for evil during daytime.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Statue

Are we sure there aren't or weren't two four-toed statues on the island - one for good and one for evil? The whole show has been about duality - faith/science - good/evil - black/white, etc.

[jimbonelson]

I noticed when Jack and Sayid took the uniforms and walked into the dharma area, one of the uniforms they took had Horace's name on it. Is it possible that it is Sayid,s body in the blue van in instead of Ben's father

[DukeUsul]

I noticed when Jack and Sayid took the uniforms and walked into the dharma area, one of the uniforms they took had Horace's name on it. Is it possible that it is Sayid,s body in the blue van in instead of Ben's father

You are a smart man. Definitely possible. I would suggest it could only happen if Sayid died before they flash back to the future. That would prevent him from time traveling, like Charlotte when she died.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Did no one notice that those to little kids might have been Katie(Kate) and James knew each other as kids but grew apart after his parents death and don't know it

[DukeUsul]

Kate's little friend in the theft at the mini mart was Tom Brennan (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Tom_Brennan), not Sawyer.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Kate's little friend in the theft at the mini mart was Tom Brennan (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Tom_Brennan), not Sawyer.


Thanks i stand corrected but did anyone notice the guy who told sawyer to stop writing the letter look like the orignal "sawyer" or Locke father just younger so since he was the reason sawyer parents died and told him to move on so nothing would happen with him

[JasonEvans]

I noticed when Jack and Sayid took the uniforms and walked into the dharma area, one of the uniforms they took had Horace's name on it. Is it possible that it is Sayid,s body in the blue van in instead of Ben's father

Nope, Horace was not killed in the blue van, he died in the Purge about 15 years later. After Ben orchestrates the Purge, he is wandering through Dharmaville and sees dead Horace on a bench. Ben goes over and closes Horace's eyes.

Here is an image of the dead Horace.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/c/c4/3x20_DeadOnTheIsland.jpg

--Jason "I think Sayid will recover during the time-shift" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Interesting to note that we all had assumed the statue to be Anubis, the god of the underworld. Last night we saw that it actually has a crocodile head, not a jackal's, indicating it may actually be a representation of Tawaret (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawaret). Tawaret is the demon-wife of Apep, the god of evil. Apep had power over evil at night, while Tawaret was responsible for evil during daytime.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Statue

Perhaps more significantly, Tawaret is known as the Egyptian god of fertility and protection over pregnant women and children.

From Wiki--

The Egyptians came to see female hippopotami as less aggressive than the males, and began to view their aggression only as one of protecting their young and being good mothers, particularly since it is the males that are territorially aggressive. Consequently, Taweret became seen, very early in Egyptian history, as a deity of protection in pregnancy and childbirth. Pregnant women wore amulets with her name or likeness to protect their pregnancies. Her image could also be found on knives made from hippopotamus ivory, which would be used as wands in rituals to drive evil spirits away from mothers and children.

In most subsequent depictions, Taweret was depicted with features of a pregnant woman. In a composite addition to the animal-compound she was also seen with pendulous breasts, a full pregnant abdomen, and long, straight human hair on her head.

--Jason "loving all the conversation" Evans

[DukeUsul]

I noticed when Jack and Sayid took the uniforms and walked into the dharma area, one of the uniforms they took had Horace's name on it. Is it possible that it is Sayid,s body in the blue van in instead of Ben's father


You are a smart man. Definitely possible. I would suggest it could only happen if Sayid died before they flash back to the future. That would prevent him from time traveling, like Charlotte when she died.

I liked your idea, but it's quite clear from this screenshot (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Roger_linus) that it was Roger the corpse found in the van.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/thumb/6/6d/3X10_RogerIsFound.jpg/800px-3X10_RogerIsFound.jpg

[DukeUsul]

Did anyone find it incredibly amusing when Miles yelled out what we've all been thinking for weeks - these guys are the ones who cause the incident they're trying to prevent! Is Miles just there for meta-analysis of their situation? And talking to dead people too, I guess.

[InSpades]

--Jason "I think Sayid will recover during the time-shift" Evans

It's very likely w/ the electro-magnetism that the bullet inside Sayid would have been pulled out (much like the filling got pulled through that one guys skull). Whether this would contribute to saving Sayid or speeding his death is unknown :). Could possibly help Jack to save him in the future.

[snowdenscold]

The part I didn't remember was that Esau then tried many times to have Jacob killed. Esau enlisted his son to do it, but that effort failed. Esau even tried to do it himself under the guise of a meeting to make-up. "Esau had planned to kill his brother "not with arrows and bow but by [my] mouth" "and sucking his blood"; but the fact that Jacob's neck turned into ivory thwarted his intention."


Where is this from? I am not familiar with it.

[crimsondevil]

I still think that Juliet/Jack/the bomb caused The Incident. They did not undo the future, they created it. If they can change the future, it creates too many impossible to explain time travel paradoxes. The show won't go there.

I agree about changing the future part. You could still be right about the incident. But the way it played out (and the fact that Miles proposed the same theory), I'm leaning towards something else. Maybe the nuke actually kept the incident from being worse than it was. Maybe releasing the energy at the Swan would have destroyed the island/the world, and the nuke checked it somehow (granted, this makes no sense scientifically, but Faraday seemed to think it might do something similar). But it didn’t eliminate the energy source. To keep that kind of situation from happening again, Dharma set up the Hatch to control the energy release.

In other words, the Losties (Juliet, really) saved everyone by detonating the bomb, but that also led (indirectly) to 815 crashing on the island.

[crimsondevil]

The part I didn't remember was that Esau then tried many times to have Jacob killed. Esau enlisted his son to do it, but that effort failed. Esau even tried to do it himself under the guise of a meeting to make-up. "Esau had planned to kill his brother "not with arrows and bow but by [my] mouth" "and sucking his blood"; but the fact that Jacob's neck turned into ivory thwarted his intention."


Where is this from? I am not familiar with it.

It's from Jewish rabbinical literature, apparently. I googled it after having the same initial reaction as you.

[ncexnyc]

It seems as though I'm the only one that's bothered by the timeline of when Jacob visited various individuals.

Jacob visited John, Jack, Kate, Sawyer, as well as Jin & Sun prior to flight 815, however he visits Sayid and Hurley after flight 815. If what we were told at the start of the episode is true, that Jacob is responsible for bringing everyone to the island, then this makes no sense whatsoever.

I am surprised it's taken Carlton and Damon all the way to the final episode of Season 5 to get us back to the Black vs White theme, which was quite prominent back in Season 1.

Based on the opening scene I got the feeling that Jacob wasn't a Good Guy. Death and destruction are about to begin once the Black Rock (if that is in fact the ship, which was offshore) makes landfall and all Jacob can do is calmly eat his fish. Checkout the transcript of this scene and you'll see what I mean. His nemesis seems to be remorsefull about what is to take place, while Jacob seems to look forward to it.

At first the flashback for Juliette confused me, because Jacob wasn't present, but then I realized this was her pre-death flashback. Every major character who has died on the show has had one and they normally coincide with a character either gaining redemption or coming to terms with their personal demons.

Ilana and her crew seemed very concerned when they noticed the ash circle was broken. Some have speculated that the cabin wasn't inhabited by Jacob, but rather his nemesis. Since we saw the nemesis freely walking around at the start of the show, how did it become that he was suddenly confined to the cabin?

If I can get the ABC site to work properly I'll give these episodes a closer look.

[JG Nothing]

It seems as though I'm the only one that's bothered by the timeline of when Jacob visited various individuals.

Jacob visited John, Jack, Kate, Sawyer, as well as Jin & Sun prior to flight 815, however he visits Sayid and Hurley after flight 815. If what we were told at the start of the episode is true, that Jacob is responsible for bringing everyone to the island, then this makes no sense whatsoever.

I am surprised it's taken Carlton and Damon all the way to the final episode of Season 5 to get us back to the Black vs White theme, which was quite prominent back in Season 1.

Based on the opening scene I got the feeling that Jacob wasn't a Good Guy. Death and destruction are about to begin once the Black Rock (if that is in fact the ship, which was offshore) makes landfall and all Jacob can do is calmly eat his fish. Checkout the transcript of this scene and you'll see what I mean. His nemesis seems to be remorsefull about what is to take place, while Jacob seems to look forward to it.

At first the flashback for Juliette confused me, because Jacob wasn't present, but then I realized this was her pre-death flashback. Every major character who has died on the show has had one and they normally coincide with a character either gaining redemption or coming to terms with their personal demons.

Ilana and her crew seemed very concerned when they noticed the ash circle was broken. Some have speculated that the cabin wasn't inhabited by Jacob, but rather his nemesis. Since we saw the nemesis freely walking around at the start of the show, how did it become that he was suddenly confined to the cabin?

If I can get the ABC site to work properly I'll give these episodes a closer look.

I also thought Jacob was a bad guy in the opening episode. I am sure there will be a lot of twists and turns next season so who knows. Sometimes goods guys don't wear white.
I am a little disappointed that the story appears to be taking a more supernatural turn (perhaps that was inevitable). I was really wanted time travel/exotic to play the dominant role. For example, I hoped that the "rules" Ben and Widemore referred to were the result of some type of temporal constraints. I really did not invest in five seasons to watch gods battle it out using humans as pawns. The Greeks did it better.
Finally, how hard was it for Sawyer to say "I love you" as Juliet was about to get sucked down the hole? Geez, what a jerk and this season made me a Sawyer fan.

[JG Nothing]

Maybe the nuke actually kept the incident from being worse than it was. Maybe releasing the energy at the Swan would have destroyed the island/the world, and the nuke checked it somehow (granted, this makes no sense scientifically, but Faraday seemed to think it might do something similar). But it didn’t eliminate the energy source. To keep that kind of situation from happening again, Dharma set up the Hatch to control the energy release.


Read this article in Popular Mechanics about the bomb and electromagnetism.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4317374.html

[Pacer]

I noticed when Jack and Sayid took the uniforms and walked into the dharma area, one of the uniforms they took had Horace's name on it. Is it possible that it is Sayid,s body in the blue van in instead of Ben's father

I believe that Ben's father is Roger... and that the body found by Hurley had a jumpsuit that said Roger, Workman.

[Pacer]

Where is this from? I am not familiar with it.

You can find it at http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Esau but that's not where I got it... I can't find where I originally got it.

[jimbonelson]

I believe that Ben's father is Roger... and that the body found by Hurley had a jumpsuit that said Roger, Workman.

I think you are right, I wonder why they went out of there way to show Horace's name on the uniform?

[JasonEvans]

Read this article in Popular Mechanics about the bomb and electromagnetism.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4317374.html

Popular Mechanics quotes an Egyptologist who says the statue had the head of a crocodile, which would make it Sobek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek), not Tawaret. Sobek is also linked with fertility though not as strongly as Tarwet. I also found this description of Sobek to be interesting--


in some Egyptian creation myths, it was Sobek who first came out of the waters of chaos to create the world. As a creator god, he was occasionally linked with the sun god Ra.

Gradually, Sobek also came to symbolize the produce of the Nile and the fertility that it brought to the land; its status thus became more ambiguous. Sometimes the ferocity of a crocodile was seen in a positive light, Sobek in these circumstances was considered the army's patron, as a representation of strength and power.

Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part.

Looking at the image of the statue, I agree that it is Croc and therefore Sobek.

--Jason "http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/thumb/2/2f/Fourtoedreconstructed.jpg/213px-Fourtoedreconstructed.jpg" Evans

[snowdenscold]

Jason,

I miss your sig that had the picture of Miles w/ the grenade in his mouth between your name...

[snowdenscold]

You can find it at http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Esau but that's not where I got it... I can't find where I originally got it.

OK, Jewish Rabbinical literature makes sense, because I reread Genesis 25-33 last night and was going nuts finding nothing.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Didn't get to watch the show until last night, and had to avoid all possible media coverage yesterday...


--Jason "Lostpedia notes that Juliet hit the bomb with the rock 8 times. Lucky they did not make her hit it 42 times, eh?" Evans

While Juliet is smacking the bomb, did anyone else think of the end scene in Jaws when Brody is trying to shoot the canister wedged in the shark's mouth? She used a very similar S.O.B line right before it blows. I liked the homage.

[pfrduke]

Popular Mechanics quotes an Egyptologist who says the statue had the head of a crocodile, which would make it Sobek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek), not Tawaret. Sobek is also linked with fertility though not as strongly as Tarwet. I also found this description of Sobek to be interesting--



Looking at the image of the statue, I agree that it is Croc and therefore Sobek.

--Jason "http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/thumb/2/2f/Fourtoedreconstructed.jpg/213px-Fourtoedreconstructed.jpg" Evans

For what it's worth (I have no idea if the network recaps are considered "canon" or not), the ABC recap of the show (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=recap#t=162212&d=201648) calls the statue Tawaret.


And as the camera pulls back, we see what we've been waiting to see since we first glimpsed that four-toed foot over three years ago... the towering, majestic statue of the Egyptian goddess Taweret.

[Pacer]

On the note of Canon, Damon and Carlton officially stated that the comicon video of Chang that had Daniel offscreen is not canon.

[BuschDevil]

Wasn't there a scene a couple seasons back where Ben kills his father (Roger) in the van by gassing him, before he goes and gases the rest of Dharma?

[Pacer]

Wasn't there a scene a couple seasons back where Ben kills his father (Roger) in the van by gassing him, before he goes and gases the rest of Dharma?

Right. I think there was some confusion as to whether it was Roger or Horace... I think we've cleared it up.

[crimsondevil]

Read this article in Popular Mechanics about the bomb and electromagnetism.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4317374.html

Ah, yeah, I suppose so. I hadn't thought of scrambling (or blowing up, for that matter) the magnetic source material. I don't know that the source is analogous to a simple permanent magnet though - it is powerful enough to "destroy the world" after all. It doesn't really matter though - my belief is thoroughly suspended for this show.

This has bothered me though: how exactly did the failsafe that Desmond activated work? Did the source just go away, get blown up, what? Was the failsafe nuclear, even, maybe similar to the Incident nuke? What made it go away then that the Incident nuke (presumably) did not do? And if that's all that was involved in eliminating the 108-minute-danger-to-the-world, why didn't someone turn the key long before Desmond did?

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Yeah, the broken line of ash needs to be explained.

The circle of ash would seem to be used to lock an evil presence in based on the various theries I've read today. Which would make sense that Jacob's evil compatriot was living in the shack and this is who Ben and Locke originally saw. However, if Esau/Evil dude is the one taking the shapes of all the dead people (Eko's bro, Ben's daughter, Christian, etc) then wouldn't he have broken out of the cabin as early as Season 1? But is seems like the broken ash circle happened between the O6's rescue and 2007.

[mr. synellinden]

The circle of ash would seem to be used to lock an evil presence in based on the various theries I've read today. Which would make sense that Jacob's evil compatriot was living in the shack and this is who Ben and Locke originally saw. However, if Esau/Evil dude is the one taking the shapes of all the dead people (Eko's bro, Ben's daughter, Christian, etc) then wouldn't he have broken out of the cabin as early as Season 1? But is seems like the broken ash circle happened between the O6's rescue and 2007.

There is also the symbolism of a broken circle = broken loop = loophole. It may be nothing more than a coincidence, but interesting that Esau has been looking for a loophole for centuries and finds it when the circle/loop of ash is broken.

[dcarp23]

The circle of ash would seem to be used to lock an evil presence in based on the various theries I've read today. Which would make sense that Jacob's evil compatriot was living in the shack and this is who Ben and Locke originally saw. However, if Esau/Evil dude is the one taking the shapes of all the dead people (Eko's bro, Ben's daughter, Christian, etc) then wouldn't he have broken out of the cabin as early as Season 1? But is seems like the broken ash circle happened between the O6's rescue and 2007.

I think Jacob had to be the one stuck in the cabin. He seemingly left the drawing of the statue to lead the new plane residents there and deliver Locke's body. I don't see the logic in Esau trying to get John's actual body delivered to Jacob.

In rewatching the opening though, I have no clue which party is good and which party is bad, or if that is even the case. In the opening scene Jacob and Esau certainly had a respect for each other, if not a liking. It almost seemed that Esau felt he had to kill Jacob, not that he wanted to, as if Jacob's continued existence was dangerous. He clearly disliked the fact that Jacob continued to bring folks to the island.

However, that fails to explain why he showed some pretty apparent disdane in kicking Jacob's body into the fire.

[JasonEvans]

This has bothered me though: how exactly did the failsafe that Desmond activated work? Did the source just go away, get blown up, what? Was the failsafe nuclear, even, maybe similar to the Incident nuke? What made it go away then that the Incident nuke (presumably) did not do? And if that's all that was involved in eliminating the 108-minute-danger-to-the-world, why didn't someone turn the key long before Desmond did?

I believe Dharma said it wanted to continue to study the electromagnetism. Judging from the way Radzinsky has been driven to get to the pocket, I would bet that he pushes real hard to preserve what they have discovered rather than destroy it.

--Jason "I will be bummed if our heroes flashing to the present means we get to see no more of the Dharma past, but those are the breaks" Evans

[dcarp23]

I think Jacob had to be the one stuck in the cabin. He seemingly left the drawing of the statue to lead the new plane residents there and deliver Locke's body. I don't see the logic in Esau trying to get John's actual body delivered to Jacob.



It would also explain why Esau needed Richard to find Jacob--he doesn't seem to have expected him to be living under the statue.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

I think Esau knew where Jacob was the whole time but didn't want anyone to know.

[JasonEvans]

Important fact to note at this point-- this entire season was driven by Locke coming to the real world to get his friends back to the Island. Everything flows from that. While none of them were leading ideal lives off-Island, now that we know what was happening on the Island, we know that their return was not essential to the lives of the people they left behind. In fact, I think a solid argument could be made that the folks who flashed into the 1970s, the left behinders, were doing pretty well for themselves up until the moment the Oceanic 6 returned.

Does anyone recall why Locke was driven to bring his friends back to the island? Does anyone remember why he took on that mission?

Locke was driven to get everyone to come back because Richard told him he had to do it. In the very first episode of the season, Richard tells Locke that to save the island and his friends, he must bring everyone back. He also tells Locke that Locke will have to die to accomplish this.

And do any of you recall why Richard delivers that message to Locke?

Because not-Locke told Richard exactly what to say. The entire season was driven by not-Locke's agenda to kill Locke, assume his identity, and get someone back to the Island that he could manipulate into killing Jacob.

Oh, one more important fact-- the only reason Ben insists on bringing Locke's body back to the Island was because Elloise Hawking told him he had to. could Elllie be working with Esau/not-Locke?

--Jason "I am loving the fact that we are finally getting enough pieces to actually put some stuff together" Evans

[ncexnyc]

Important fact to note at this point-- this entire season was driven by Locke coming to the real world to get his friends back to the Island. Everything flows from that. While none of them were leading ideal lives off-Island, now that we know what was happening on the Island, we know that their return was not essential to the lives of the people they left behind. In fact, I think a solid argument could be made that the folks who flashed into the 1970s, the left behinders, were doing pretty well for themselves up until the moment the Oceanic 6 returned.

Does anyone recall why Locke was driven to bring his friends back to the island? Does anyone remember why he took on that mission?

Locke was driven to get everyone to come back because Richard told him he had to do it. In the very first episode of the season, Richard tells Locke that to save the island and his friends, he must bring everyone back. He also tells Locke that Locke will have to die to accomplish this.

And do any of you recall why Richard delivers that message to Locke?

Because not-Locke told Richard exactly what to say. The entire season was driven by not-Locke's agenda to kill Locke, assume his identity, and get someone back to the Island that he could manipulate into killing Jacob.

Oh, one more important fact-- the only reason Ben insists on bringing Locke's body back to the Island was because Elloise Hawking told him he had to. could Elllie be working with Esau/not-Locke?

--Jason "I am loving the fact that we are finally getting enough pieces to actually put some stuff together" Evans

Well this all sounds fine and dandy, but the trouble with floating a theory out there, is that while the point you're focusing on seems covered by your stated position, other issues are often neglected.

In this case you seem to have forgotten that the stay behinds were getting bumped back and forth through time and in general life was pretty bad for them, what with the flaming arrows and people shooting at them.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

Important fact to note at this point-- this entire season was driven by Locke coming to the real world to get his friends back to the Island. Everything flows from that. While none of them were leading ideal lives off-Island, now that we know what was happening on the Island, we know that their return was not essential to the lives of the people they left behind. In fact, I think a solid argument could be made that the folks who flashed into the 1970s, the left behinders, were doing pretty well for themselves up until the moment the Oceanic 6 returned.

Does anyone recall why Locke was driven to bring his friends back to the island? Does anyone remember why he took on that mission?

Locke was driven to get everyone to come back because Richard told him he had to do it. In the very first episode of the season, Richard tells Locke that to save the island and his friends, he must bring everyone back. He also tells Locke that Locke will have to die to accomplish this.

And do any of you recall why Richard delivers that message to Locke?

Because not-Locke told Richard exactly what to say. The entire season was driven by not-Locke's agenda to kill Locke, assume his identity, and get someone back to the Island that he could manipulate into killing Jacob.

Oh, one more important fact-- the only reason Ben insists on bringing Locke's body back to the Island was because Elloise Hawking told him he had to. could Elllie be working with Esau/not-Locke?

--Jason "I am loving the fact that we are finally getting enough pieces to actually put some stuff together" Evans

That makes sense. I think perhaps E. Hawking and Widmore have always been on the other "side" - perhaps against Jacob and maybe even Richard. Maybe they were caught doing something and that's why Widmore had to leave? Maybe this is why the future Ell was trying to make sure Daniel got back so he could make sure something got completed that she had failed to do (aka leading to the death of Jacob).

I was also thinking that the reason Jacob seems so insensitive to Ben is the shear fact that Ben stands for a lot of those bad things Jacob believes man may be able to overcome or is better than. Jacob may have let Ben stay a leader for so long because he believed that maybe he could change - when he didn't he was finally banished. E. Hawking knew he could then (after the Jacob he had been serving so blindly for so long banished him) be manipulated easily into killing Jacob - or at least he would have a strong motif.

Maybe the voice whispering "help me..." to Locke in the cabin was not Jacob at all but his nemisis... after seeing Jacob - I don't think he'd be the one to rattle the cabin and throw things around... would you? Jacob also doesn't seem like he was the one that needed help.

[ncexnyc]

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Morning.

BLOND MAN: Mornin'.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Mind if I join you?

BLOND MAN: [Shaking his head] Please. Want some fish?

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Thank you. I just ate.

[The gray-haired man sits down not far away.]

BLOND MAN: I take it you're here 'cause of the ship.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: I am. How did they find the Island?

BLOND MAN: You'll have to ask 'em when they get here.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?

BLOND MAN: You are wrong.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

BLOND MAN: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.

[The gray-haired man stares at his compatriot.]

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?

BLOND MAN: Yes.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: One of these days, sooner or later... I'm going to find a loophole, my friend.

BLOND MAN: Well, when you do, I'll be right here.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Always nice talking to you, Jacob.

JACOB: Nice talking to you, too.

This is the dialogue from the start of, "The Incident." I'm still not sure why some people insist on portraying Jacob as a GOOD GUY. Here he is calmly sitting on the beach eating a fish, just waiting for the murder and mayhem to begin. For someone who supposedly cares about humanity he seems rather detached and distant to the pain and suffering he is responsible for.

Let's place whole scenario into a different context.

We're watching a movie about ancient Rome. Brad Pitt has the lead as the Emperor. He's sitting listening to some delicate poetry being read and in walks his nemesis, the most powerful man in the Senate. The actor who plays this role isn't very handsome and some would call him ugly. Both men are powerfull and they would gladly kill one another, but neither can make an overt move against his rival, because the balance of power is so evenly split within the empire. The Senator tells the Emperor that his days are numbered and quietly leaves the scene. How do we the audience view this? I'm sure most viewers would think the Senator is the bad guy, just as most Lost viewers feel the man in black is the bad guy. It seems many people's opinion on this matter are based purely on the appearance of the characters.

[Pacer]

It seems many people's opinion on this matter are based purely on the appearance of the characters.

I base mine on the dialog you quoted. The man in black believes that humans are inherently destructive and can't be changed. Jacob believes that things can be different and calls it "progress." Furthermore, he brings people to the island to try and achieve that progress. He's a hopeful man who believes in the inner good of the human race. The man in black is done with them.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

I base mine on the dialog you quoted. The man in black believes that humans are inherently destructive and can't be changed. Jacob believes that things can be different and calls it "progress." Furthermore, he brings people to the island to try and achieve that progress. He's a hopeful man who believes in the inner good of the human race. The man in black is done with them.

Isn't this the plot of Trading Places?

[Pacer]

yes, and John Locke eating an orange slice is a reference to cornering orange juice futures.

[JasonEvans]

I'm still not sure why some people insist on portraying Jacob as a GOOD GUY. Here he is calmly sitting on the beach eating a fish, just waiting for the murder and mayhem to begin. For someone who supposedly cares about humanity he seems rather detached and distant to the pain and suffering he is responsible for.


2 things--

1) I think we infer that Jacob is good while Esau is bad because Esau is the one who desires to kill the other-- Esau is the one who deceives Ben, Sun, Richard, Locke and so many other folks to get access to Jacob-- Esau is the one who convinces Ben to commit murder. Esau would seem to be doing a lot of bad stuff.

2) That said, I could easily see Lost turning our perception of reality on its head and making Jacob the bad guy while making Esau the good guy. Recall that Jacob's "people" on the Ajira plane used guns and threats and violence to seize control of the situation after the crash and that they essentially kidnapped Lapidus.

So, I am not convinced either way. I will admit that the show is clearly trying to paint Jacob as the good guy and Esau as the bad guy, of that there is no question at this point.

--Jason "question-- did Jacob save Sayid or did he cause Nadia to get killed?" Evans

[JasonEvans]

yes, and John Locke eating an orange slice is a reference to cornering orange juice futures.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-pGkeGjJTvs/R7RZ2eQjXTI/AAAAAAAACW0/1HMRRYrHf3U/s320/LockeOrangeSmile.jpg

[ncexnyc]

1) I think we infer that Jacob is good while Esau is bad because Esau is the one who desires to kill the other-- Esau is the one who deceives Ben, Sun, Richard, Locke and so many other folks to get access to Jacob-- Esau is the one who convinces Ben to commit murder. Esau would seem to be doing a lot of bad stuff.

--Jason "question-- did Jacob save Sayid or did he cause Nadia to get killed?" Evans

You make an excellent point Jason. I guess I'm having trouble buying into Jacob's willingness to use people as nothing more as lab rats to help him prove his point.

Maybe we should be calling Esau, Thomas Hobbes, since Hobbes had a rather dim view of people.

Esau does indeed seem to be doing a lot of naughty, naughties, however if Jacob is actually the Bad Guy, then maybe Esau believes the ends justify the means. Let's also remember that it appears it was Esau and not Jacob who was actually imprisoned in the cabin. I'd love to find out how that came about and why.

Of course we're going to have a good long wait until next year before we get any answers. In the meantime I'm going over my Season 4 set and just finished watching, "The Other Woman." This is the episode about the poison gas. Juliette is roaming through the jungle, hears whispers and is suddenly confronted by the vision of Harper. Jack enters the clearing and also sees Harper, who then vanishes into thin air. Supposedly Harper was sent by Ben to warn Juliette she had to stop Daniel and Charlotte, as it turns out this was bogus info. Ben was confined by Locke at this time so was Harper actually Smokey or was it our friend Esau? If the gas is actually released then everyone dies and I would venture to guess the Others as well as our Losties and Widmore's people. So who does that benifit?

[JasonEvans]

Of course we're going to have a good long wait until next year before we get any answers. In the meantime I'm going over my Season 4 set and just finished watching, "The Other Woman." This is the episode about the poison gas. Juliette is roaming through the jungle, hears whispers and is suddenly confronted by the vision of Harper. Jack enters the clearing and also sees Harper, who then vanishes into thin air. Supposedly Harper was sent by Ben to warn Juliette she had to stop Daniel and Charlotte, as it turns out this was bogus info. Ben was confined by Locke at this time so was Harper actually Smokey or was it our friend Esau? If the gas is actually released then everyone dies and I would venture to guess the Others as well as our Losties and Widmore's people. So who does that benifit?

Wanna hear something blasphemous from me?

I think the writers did not know what smokey and the walking dead were when they wrote that episode.

I know we hear all this stuff about how the show was planned and plotted in advance and it knows where it is going -- and I think it is a great thing -- but I think the writers only have a general idea of where they are going not a very, very specific storyline they are following. As a result, when we look back on scenes and moments from a season or two ago, we are likely to find they do not mesh 100% with what later turns out to be the explanation for what we are seeing.

For example, recall all those mechanical sounds we heard in earlier seasons when smokey was doing its thing? I bet we never get an explanation for those. I think there was a time when the show was going to make smokey into a machine of sorts. The explanation for what smokey was and what his purpose was back in season 1, 2, and 3 are very different than what we are seeing and learning now in seasons 6 and 7.

I don't blame the show or the powers behind it for this. It is just the reality of how Hollywood and TV works. Think about a character like Richard who seems so important and central to the main mythology we are fascinated by right now. There is no way they had any idea he would become this important the first several times we saw him. Heck, if that silly show Cane had been just a little bit more of a hit, Richard would not even be on the show any more. The producers have admitted that Ben was not supposed to be a main character or the leader of the Others when they brought him on but Michael Emmerson was so good in the role that they decided to expand his story beyond the 3-4 episode arc he was supposed to take.

I think the show did a lot of stuff that seemed cool at the time (the circle of ash, the 4-toed statue, smokey, Richard does not age) that was designed to freak the audience out and provide "WOW!!" or "what is up with that??!?" moments but which had not been completely plotted out at the time. That's cool. That is how Hollywood works. I can deal with it. But, I think you should keep this in mind when watching older episodes and searching for hints and answers within those episodes.

--Jason "Eko died because the actor wanted off the show-- not because of some grand scheme for his character" Evans

[OZZIE4DUKE]

The producers have admitted that Ben was not supposed to be a main character or the leader of the Others when they brought him on but Michael Emmerson was so good in the role that they decided to expand his story beyond the 3-4 episode arc he was supposed to take.
Barbara Feldon's Agent 99 was only supposed to be a 2 or 3 show gig on Get Smart. We all know how that turned out due to her popularity!

Jason, as usual, I think you are right.

[ncexnyc]

If you really want to hear something that is blasphemy try this on for size. I still believe the original theme of this show was that dreaded P word, PURGATORY. I sincerely believe that was what they had in mind for this show, but once the show took off and so many people guessed this early on they had to change directions. I believe this accounts for the erractic writing and shift in story arc, which took place between Season 1 & 2.

I also believe that shows like Lost, The X-Files, and Fringe suffer from a very similar fate. You start to create a mythology and fans get hooked. The fans view the limited amount of info they have and expand on the unknown within their own minds. Unfortunately as the shows progress the answers that are given either don't make any sense or differ vastly from what was developed in the minds of the fans.

Couple this with the fact that shows have unpredictable lives and it's easy to see how the story can be poorly developed compared to say a novel. Throw in actor issues and things get extra messy.

I guess that is what was so great about the TV mini-series. These seem to have become an extinct TV art form.

[A-Tex Devil]

I think the show did a lot of stuff that seemed cool at the time (the circle of ash, the 4-toed statue, smokey, Richard does not age) that was designed to freak the audience out and provide "WOW!!" or "what is up with that??!?" moments but which had not been completely plotted out at the time. That's cool. That is how Hollywood works. I can deal with it. But, I think you should keep this in mind when watching older episodes and searching for hints and answers within those episodes.


I almost posted this in the new Lost thread you started and the realized it had spoilers, but it also is kind of a response to the above:

You know what also would be cool, but it would probably never happen? They should do a DVD set that is completely chronological. I struggle with whether the Losties stuck in 1977 should be on a pure chronological timeline or their own personal timeline as far as order of events go. I think the latter probably makes more sense, but not sure.

I am sure some ambitious Lostophile with too much time on his/her hands may try to do this after the series is over next year. And some of it would be disjointed and awkward, but I think that even with the few continuity glitches it might highlight (as Jason mentions above), it would really show how tightly plotted this show really is.


I'm kinda getting a Stargate meshed with Dark City vibe -- what with the Egyptian connotations and social experimentation themes from that finale.

[snowdenscold]

The explanation for what smokey was and what his purpose was back in season 1, 2, and 3 are very different than what we are seeing and learning now in seasons 6 and 7.


Woah! Season 7?! Sweeeeet....

;)


Actually it's funny - several seasons ago I was really excited that they put an end date in sight after 6 seasons and that it wouldn't drag on forever. Now I'm kind of sad we're almost done.

[JasonEvans]

If you really want to hear something that is blasphemy try this on for size. I still believe the original theme of this show was that dreaded P word, PURGATORY. I sincerely believe that was what they had in mind for this show, but once the show took off and so many people guessed this early on they had to change directions. I believe this accounts for the erractic writing and shift in story arc, which took place between Season 1 & 2.

I also believe that shows like Lost, The X-Files, and Fringe suffer from a very similar fate. You start to create a mythology and fans get hooked. The fans view the limited amount of info they have and expand on the unknown within their own minds. Unfortunately as the shows progress the answers that are given either don't make any sense or differ vastly from what was developed in the minds of the fans.

Couple this with the fact that shows have unpredictable lives and it's easy to see how the story can be poorly developed compared to say a novel. Throw in actor issues and things get extra messy.

I guess that is what was so great about the TV mini-series. These seem to have become an extinct TV art form.

I cannot imagine what a challenge it is to have a storyline plotted out but then have to fill 26 or 52 or even more hours of TV with that same storyline which only dolling out little pieces of it every now and then. Of course the writers end up changing course and adapting-- it would be almost impossible for them not to.

There is no way in season one or even season two they could know that Jacob would be a major figure on the show and that they would not really introduce him in physical form to us until the end of season five. Are you kidding me?!?!?!

The problem is that TV shows really make money when they get renewed and have a stable audience who buys DVDs and even follows them in syndication. This is why mystery shows like Lost or Xfiles or Fringe are encouraged to hold off on the big reveals as long as possible and why the big reveal is often not a reveal at all. Alternately, you can take the model of 24 or Heroes where they just make stuff up as they go along.

Sigh, I just sit back and enjoy the ride-- that is all any of us can do :(

--Jason "hoping someone takes me up on the offer to be a Lost newbie for the summer and fall-- it would be fun to see their reactions to stuff" Evans

[Rich]

You know what also would be cool, but it would probably never happen? They should do a DVD set that is completely chronological. I struggle with whether the Losties stuck in 1977 should be on a pure chronological timeline or their own personal timeline as far as order of events go. I think the latter probably makes more sense, but not sure.

I am sure some ambitious Lostophile with too much time on his/her hands may try to do this after the series is over next year. And some of it would be disjointed and awkward, but I think that even with the few continuity glitches it might highlight (as Jason mentions above), it would really show how tightly plotted this show really is.

Well, they did it for The Godfather, but I think the fact that different people appear in episodes at the same time with others in different times (e.g., Sun is in the present looking for Jin who is in 1977) would make this extremely difficult and maybe even more confusing. But I would consider watching it!

[Pacer]

I keep forgetting to post this...

It occurred to me that there is an interesting parallel. Esau expresses to Jacob that he wants to kill him but can't. When Ben came to Widmore in Widmore's bedroom, they had a conversation in which Widmore asked if Ben was there to kill him, and Ben replied that "We both know I can't do that."

Pure conjecture: If the temple is Esau's domain, and Ben was "changed" when he went in there to be saved after Sayid shot him, did he somehow become an agent of Esau? Is Widmore a proxy for Jacob and thus the inability of Esau to kill Jacob is transferred to their proxies, Ben and Widmore?

Is Richard some kind of referee in the cosmic game being played out by Jacob and Esau?

[El_Diablo]

The Apollo candy bar with Jack was worthless, though Jacob said, "maybe all it needed was a little push," which is supposed to have some meaning, but would have meant nothing at all to Jack.

I really liked the subtlety of that scene.

I think that the comment has multiple purposes. It tries to illustrate how Christian's operating room behavior to Jack was actually helping him grow/succeed, rather than holding him back (as Jack believed at the time). It shows that Jack was a little stubborn and immature and needed to be 'pushed' a little bit to transform into the brilliant surgeon he became that day. It also foreshadows Jack's initial trip to the island, when Jack is 'pushed' into a leadership role that he despises and at times tries to resist.

[Pacer]

In following the musings of the Lost first-time-watchers, I wanted to drop a note in here about the seeming connection between Locke and Walt playing backgammon in the early episodes and the light and dark of Jacob and Esau.

I'm not sure what to make of it.. but I found it interesting.

[Udaman]

I just realized something about this season (and I'm sure others have come to this conclusion as well)....

The ending with finding out Locke isn't really Locke - explains the scene with Ben and the Smoke Monster (and the visit from his dead daugther). She tells him, "Do exactly as Locke tells you, or I'll kill you." That is clearly Esau taking over the form of his daughter, to trick him...so that he'll follow Locke (who is also Esau). I think Esau is the "bad guy" for sure...though in this battle there may be no real "good guy," as clearly Jacob is not all that is good in the world.

Still, he seems to represent the good in humanity.

His "they're coming" clearly refers to Jack, Hurley, etc. There's a reason they were sent back in time...it was to do what they did. Now they are back. Will be very interesting to see where the last season starts - is it back at the original plane crash? Are they at the Foot? My theory is that the statue is mostly destroyed from the explosion from the bomb...but we shall see.

Final season is all about optimism versus pessimism. Hope versus anguish. And we find out why this group of people ended up there - as the tagline said, Destiny Awaits (or something like that).

By the way...best...show...ever. Only one season to go, and already I miss knowing this is the last curtain call.

[JasonEvans]

His "they're coming" clearly refers to Jack, Hurley, etc. There's a reason they were sent back in time...it was to do what they did. Now they are back. Will be very interesting to see where the last season starts - is it back at the original plane crash? Are they at the Foot? My theory is that the statue is mostly destroyed from the explosion from the bomb...but we shall see.


The statue was nowhere near the Swan site, which is where the bomb explosion would have happened. If the bomb caused an explosion that big, it would kill pretty much everyone on the Island, including young Ben, Richard, and many other key characters.

I subscribe to the theory that the bomb blast was very localized and did not change Island history. It was supposed to happen and it did happen. The past cannot be changed, in my view. Ben could not be killed, the Swan station must be built, Dharma must record their videos, Ellie must kill her son, and so on. Jack actually enabled "the incident" to happen. He did not prevent it. He always does this.

I do think there will be things our heroes learned in the past that will help them in the coming season and in the battle against Esau/not-Locke.

--Jason "I cannot freaking believe how long we have to wait for the next season... the final season" Evans

[A-Tex Devil]

"Flashback: The writers give enough revealing lines to Tom to determine that we are in Iowa. Tom says it's not fair of Kate to come back there, home. She strikes metal. It's a New Kids on the Block lunch box that they used as a time capsule in 1989. The toy plane is inside the lunch box. It was Tom's, he put it in the time capsule. Oh Tom, she loves you but she's going to kill you! They made a tape together on August 15, 1989. Kate Austin and Tom Brennan. They were childhood sweethearts. Even then Katie always wanted to run away. They kiss. Kate says "Sorry". They go to the hospital."

Another tie-in to the finale that I had completely forgotten about.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

"Flashback: The writers give enough revealing lines to Tom to determine that we are in Iowa. Tom says it's not fair of Kate to come back there, home. She strikes metal. It's a New Kids on the Block lunch box that they used as a time capsule in 1989. The toy plane is inside the lunch box. It was Tom's, he put it in the time capsule. Oh Tom, she loves you but she's going to kill you! They made a tape together on August 15, 1989. Kate Austin and Tom Brennan. They were childhood sweethearts. Even then Katie always wanted to run away. They kiss. Kate says "Sorry". They go to the hospital."

Another tie-in to the finale that I had completely forgotten about.
I guess anyone/everyone reading this thread knows you are quoting from Bostondevil's Lost thread. Of course, Bostondevil won't be reading this thread until maybe August ;)

[Udaman]

Two more things about this last season:

1) The whole "You need to die John," was caused when Esau tells Richard that he has to tell Locke that he needs to die. So poor John Locke was simply used and abused by Esau. He didn't need to die to bring them back. He needed to die so Esau could kill Jacob. Pretty cool connection, actually. But this means...

2) That John Locke - the character I really loved - is gone. Sort of sad.

The one thing missing, is why Ben killed Locke. I bet we get something that reveals why he did that. Maybe he was told to do it before he left. Somehow, something made him kill John - and I bet it was at Esau's urging.

[Pacer]

2) That John Locke - the character I really loved - is gone. Sort of sad.


I wouldn't be so sure.... I think all bets are off in view of the explosion near the pocket of energy. The potential for it to time shift people or send us to another loop of time or alternate reality are pretty large. The real locke could easily be alive in either scenario.

[JasonEvans]

I wouldn't be so sure.... I think all bets are off in view of the explosion near the pocket of energy. The potential for it to time shift people or send us to another loop of time or alternate reality are pretty large. The real locke could easily be alive in either scenario.

True, but any "reset" would really, really suck from a storytelling standpoint. It would make the past season (at least) 100% irrelevant in many ways. I just cannot imagine that JJ, Damon, and Carlton's plan involved as lame a storytelling device as "they set off a bomb and everything that happened no longer happens."

Locke is dead. I am 98% sure of it.

I cannot recall where I read it, but I seem to recall hearing Terry O'Quin says that he would miss playing John Locke but he is looking forward to playing a new character on Lost next season.

--Jason "it is possible the show runners are trying to fool me/us... they've done it before" Evans

[snowdenscold]

In reading thru BD's recaps, I realized I have some questions - and that I can't remember if they've been answered on the show, or if we're still waiting (or they were just ignored and hoped no one would go back and rewatch lol).

What happened to the parade of children we saw go through the jungle? Did we ever see them again at the Others camp?

Who was on the other end of the computer that seemed to be Walt? Where was that coming from?

[JasonEvans]

What happened to the parade of children we saw go through the jungle? Did we ever see them again at the Others camp?

Who was on the other end of the computer that seemed to be Walt? Where was that coming from?

Neither of these have ever been answered, nor do I expect them to be answered.

The image of the Others as dirty and messy and obsessed with stealing children has been shown to be untrue for the most part. I would chalk the scene of the creepy line of kids up to the writers not being 100% sure what the Others story would be when that episode was done.

As for Walt's powers to project himself to other places (recall the backwards-talking, wet Walt we saw several times in season two) and talk through the computer, I think these too are signs of the writers making some stuff up as they went along and later abandoning it. Not a big deal in my mind.

--Jason "the computer obviously may have been the Others pretending to be Walt" Evans

[Wander]

Done! Most of what I could say has already been said, but one point that I haven't seen brought up:

The last episode helped convince me that there are two monsters. It's been strongly hinted at that the Smoke Monster is somehow tied to Esau, so it would make sense to have a second monster tied to Jacob to keep the dichotomy going. This explains the conversation Mr. Eko and Locke had a few seasons ago: Eko described Smokey to Locke, but Locke replied that the monster he saw looked like bright flashes of light. A smoke vs light monster also fits the black/white theme.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Done! Most of what I could say has already been said, but one point that I haven't seen brought up:

The last episode helped convince me that there are two monsters. It's been strongly hinted at that the Smoke Monster is somehow tied to Esau, so it would make sense to have a second monster tied to Jacob to keep the dichotomy going. This explains the conversation Mr. Eko and Locke had a few seasons ago: Eko described Smokey to Locke, but Locke replied that the monster he saw looked like bright flashes of light. A smoke vs light monster also fits the black/white theme.
Ooh! Nice! I like this thinking. :cool: