MBB: Duke-Boston College postgame thread

[eddiehaskell]

I know UNC has been making a lot of 3s (Lawson, Ellington, Green) so that made me wonder if they've made more than Duke. After looking up the stats it's pretty surprising considering how many we made last year. We are considered an outside oriented team (even this year), but we're actually around 4th or 5th (NC State played 2 less games) in 3 pointers made this year.

'08/'09

Miami 177 (24 games)
UNC 176 (25 )
Clemson 174 (24)
BC 169 (27)
Duke 166 (25)
Florida St. 148 (25)
NC St. 147 (23)
VT 142 (24)

'07/'08

Duke 308
Clemson 271
Florida St. 234
Miami 236
UNC 216
VT 192
BC 184
NC St. 176

We are no longer 3-point shooting team yet we aren't an inside team either. Percentage wise we are down, too: .377 vs .346 :(

[Kfanarmy]

Wha'ts wrong with it is he's not on the floor long enough to warm up probably...what is he averaging the last two-three games, 6-7 minutes would be my guess.

[xblade]

What was Greg's stats?

2 points on 1-2 shooting, versus Nolan's 1 point on 0-6 shooting. Greg also had 2 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals....and 2 turnovers.

Not sure why, but Greg took no threes yesterday. He had a couple of good looks, but wouldn't take the shot.

[xblade]

Is K too proud to give Elliot, Marty, or Plumlee a chance?

Yeah, that's probably it. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with EW's 37% fg shooting, 21% from three, and 54% from the line, or Plumlees constant lapses on defense, turnovers at will, and 54% from the line, or Marty shooting 12% on the only shot he knows about. Seriously, does he know it's not against the rules to shoot 2 point shots?

Yeah, K should stop being so proud and play those guys. What they bring to the table at this point is exactly we need. Nothing sparks a team offensively quite like a bunch of bench players who can't shoot.


Jon-Gerald-Kyle shot 3-15 from 3, terrible, mostly because they took too many while shooting poorly rather than being agressive and driving the ball looking to create opportunities.

Don't lump Kyle in with those 2 chuckers. He was actually 3-6 from three. The other two were 0-9. Kyle did okay tonight, no complaints from me.

[Saratoga2]

Having read all the posts, I can see a wide variety of opinions exist on what caused us to lose and what we might do going forward to improve the situation.

We had good offensive games from Singler, Henderson and Thomas but little contribution from the others. That won't cut it against ACC quality teams. We have a lot of focus on the perimeter game and our outside shooting has not been good or consistent this year. What's worse is that when 3's are taken from the corner, our shooter (Henderson, Scheyer, Singler) is out of the play and can't defend against a fast break, making it too easy to get quick points on us. If we aaren't caapable of hitting a reasonable percentage of 3's we will be in trouble with most ACC teams.

I agree with the concept of comparing bench guys with the player actually on the floor, and not with an idea of perfection.

For that reason, I would use Plumlee to supplement Thomas and possibly at the expense of McClure and Zoubek. We need more inside presence!

The suggestion of starting Scheyer at point and using Williams with him at times is interesting. If Smith is hurt and Paulus is not terribly effective, we would have a good ball handler along with a long athletic defender in the game, who might also slash to the basket. Something is needed to improve team play and there are not that many options.

[Native]

My biggest problem with this team is the fact that we can't play a complete game. What I mean by that is that we always play one good half, but we can't ever play another solid half. Look at the games:

Miami: Awful 1st half, great 2nd half/OT
UNC: Great 1st half, awful 2nd half

And that's only two examples. I don't know if it's a question of momentum or whatever, but I think we would be winning a lot more if we could play a full 40 minutes.

[Matches]

I agree. Great post.Duke has a great basketball tradition.I am not spoiled and will remain a Duke fan forever. I don't need to hear how great our guys are and what great student athletes they are. I know that. However I am pragmatic about what I see on the court. Our guard play was mediocre at best today. It has to be better for a good run in post season play.

Excellent series of posts. Personally I find the "of course we'll win we're Duke and we're the best" mentality to be every bit as destructive as the "we're Duke so we're entitled to win" mentality, because they're variations on the same theme. Our guys lace up their shoes one at a time just like everyone else. K is IMO the greatest coach of all time but he is a fallible human being just like everyone else. Our recruiting has slipped. It's been going on for 6-7 years, but it hasn't been all that evident b/c K is so skilled at getting the max from the talent he's got. Eventually, though, you gotta have the horses.

Our talent level and BC's aren't very different. We may have a slight edge but it's slight. More to the point, our team has two glaring weaknesses, and they happen to be the two most important positions on the floor. That's not to say the team couldn't rebound and make a nice March run - hopefully they will - but at this point I don't know how an objective observer could look at that possibility as anything other than a longshot.

[whereinthehellami]

BC is an OK team. They would be lucky to be a first round exit from the NCAAs. To sugarcoat it and say that they are better is to sell Duke's problems short. Duke is a flawed team. They are lacking a top 10 PG and a top 10 C. And as of lately, this athletically challenged, sometimes undersized team doesn't shoot very well. The only thing that can change in my mind would be their shooting and with the season wearing on, legs getting tired, I don't see Duke stringing together a bunch of wins to close out this season.

Duke just looks so much more tired than every other team. Equal parts physical and mental. Singler looks whipped. i think coach K needs to go outside the box now and really rest the starters outside of games. These guys need thier legs back for a stretch run.

[cruxer]

See this is where you are WRONG. We've done GREAT things with LESS talent. It doesn't matter who's out there if the team plays together, communicates, and makes plays. Just ask UNLV.

OK I have to quibble with this on 2 counts:

First, the biggest issue most of us that are concerned has is that we are either regressing during the season, or other teams are improving much more through the season than we are. Either way all indications are that we're up for another early March exit. The last 2 seasons with mostly the same players make this concern very real and very reasonable.

Second (and this is a pet peeve of mine), it is fallacy to say UNLV was more talented than Duke in '91. We didn't know it at the time, but that Duke team had 3 lottery pick NBAers, just like LV. I'll take primo Hurley, Hill and Leattner over LJ, Stacey Augmon, and Greg Anthony, but I'm biased. Most impartial observers would call it a wash at best. Also, I'd like to point out that the 91 team, although they had 6 losses, were strong in February/March. We lost a total of 3 games--@Wake, @#9 'Zona and vs 'Holes in the ACC Championship!

-c

[Buckeye Devil]

Earlier, someone said that they could not accept losing to middle tier ACC teams. At this point, I can't understand why that is upsetting to anyone as Duke has shown itself to be a middle tier ACC team this season by losing to Wake, UNC, Clemson, and now BC. I say "to this point" as there is still the opportunity to prove otherwise through the remainder of the regular season and in the ACC tournament.

Sadly, Duke's stock will fade in the eyes of the NCAAT selection committee unless the holes are plugged in hurry. That will translate into tougher early round matchups and greater chance of an early round exit like 07-08. IMO, we seem to frequently refer to the importance of matchups in the NCAAT. I am getting tired of using that phrase in conversations with Duke haters (like telling a nauseating WVU fan that last year was not a good matchup for Duke). I suppose to some degree matchups will come into play more often in today's world of college basketball.

But it just seems that highlighting the significance of how well Duke matches up with another tournament team has become more prominent in recent years. I just hope that it is not a longstanding practice and look forward to the time that factors such as "what the team, who they have, or how they play" isn't always such a big deal to Duke and its loyal fans.

[gw67]

OK - just watched the game on the DVR. It's not as bad of a loss as I had expected it to be reading about the loss from the office.

So while I would vastly prefer a win, and because a win would do so much to quell talk about Duke fading again in March, this loss wasn't THAT bad. We had some issues, especially in 10-15 minutes to start the second half when we lost our lead, but overall we played a decent game.

I generally don't visit the site for a day following a loss but I figured that most posters here would be even keeled. I agree with jyuwono's entire post and the two snipets above. This was not a terrible loss. BC is a good team that needs marque wins to get an NCAAT bid. Plus the game was an away game. IMO, the days are over when ACC teams will roll over for the Devils and Heels and we all need to recognize it. The remaining five games will be difficult (Wake, @Md, @VT, Fla St, and @UNC).

I don't believe that there are any silver bullets. While Singler has been the team's best player since the first game and Henderson has played very well since late December, the key for the team's success will be for Scheyer and Smith to break out of their slumps and for Thomas to play at a high level. Both Scheyer and Smith had terrific starts but since late December their shooting has been off. Amazingly, Smith has only eight three-pointers in his last 15 games. He is such a wonderful offensive player that you wonder if he is fighting an injury.

I still think this team will accomplish much this year but it will not be easy.

gw67

[jv001]

There's several reasons we're not playing well right now. At the beginning of the season, Coach K said he wanted this team to have fun and enjoy the games and the season. At first they seemed to be doing this. But since the ACC season began it looks like the players attitudes have changed. Even in the wins it looked like the pressure had taken away the fun. I think mental fatigue has more to do with our poor play than physical fatigue. There's not many young men that get to suit it up for Duke University. So come on guys enjoy your season and career. Go Duke!

[NSDukeFan]

It was a tough loss on the road in the ACC, to a good team that shot very well. Your team is not done winning games this year.

This is not the dominate team that many would like to see, but it is your team. Sometimes it's hard to just enjoy them and support them and take it as it comes.

So you don't have a top 5 team in the country. You do still have a very dangerous team that I can assure you nobody looks forward to playing.

So it takes a Carolina fan to put some perspective into things? Yes, we are on a bad streak right now, but I think we will still make the tournament (someone actually questioned that?) and are going to have a lot of great games left. The rest of the schedule is not easy, and I expect some excellent games in the regular and post- seasons.
2 points I thought I would make after reading most of the posts here:
1) I realize there are a lot of people who would like to see certain players get more minutes, but since we have lost 3 tight games lately and won one in overtime, do you think this would be the best time to introduce players who have not produced anything better than the current players? I think I will trust K on this one
2) The difference in the last few games is we haven't been able to win with our D. Our offense has not been any worse, perhaps even better in some respects, though of course there is room for improvement. Earlier in the season, we could struggle on offense and our D was SO good that we would still win.
We are still 20-5, we have beaten Purdue on the road (top 15 team), Georgetown (top 10 at the time), Xavier (top 10 team), won the coaches vs. Cancer tourney, beaten a good FSU team on the road, had a couple of tight losses against some good teams and Clemson. I like our chances at St. John's and then we have a great opportunity for a huge statememt game at home against a Wake team that we almost beat on the road.
Go Duke!

[pepsiman]

I think the biggest problem we have is that were not a well rounded team! We have needed a low post player for some time now. You just cant depend on perimeter shooting to win games. Once you have established and inside game the rest will follow. I think we need to play Zoubek more, G & K are great at driving in the paint! That would allow us to pass the ball low post, instead of trying to shoot 8 footers or 3's all night. We have to establish low post points in the paint. GO DUKE!!!

[RepoMan]

I haven't had a chance to read through everything, but came away from the game with two thoughts:

1. Through the Clemson game, this team had established a Defense first mentality. They showed it on the court, and we heard it in the player quotes. I understand that Paulus earned the opportunity to start, and the recent losses certainly are not his fault. Moreover, Nolan is not making a compelling argument for more PT. Still, I think the team is suffering from an identity crisis. With Greg at the point, we cannot be a dominant defense team. So, then, what are we? I think that is what we are seeing. Personally, I'd prefer to get back to the defensive focus, even with Nolan playing poorly.

2. We didn't play terrible. This, again, shows that, while we are a good team, we have little room for error. This is another reason I wish we would reestablish the defensive identity. With so many players in pronounced offensive slumps, we need defense to lead the way.

[dukestheheat]

This question I had last night got buried in the thread somewhere and I can't find it, but I'd like to get your opinion on a defensive strategy.

Notice in the UNC game, first half, Duke slowed Lawson by having our guard on him all the way up the floor, and then Duke also brought in one of our paint bigs to run an amoeba-like contain on Lawson, beginning right at mid-court. We gave up a stronger defense on the high post, because the Duke big was out at midcourt to help slow Lawson; what we gained was a slower Lawson, who couldn't really create as much and who only scored 4 points that half.

What is your opinion on this defense in terms of helping slow the really terrific, lightning quick guards? Certainly, our interior D is much more vulnerable in that case, but it worked like a magic charm on the Hole guard.

thoughts?

dukestheheat

[edensquad]

Duke lost the second half to BC by 11 points; that makes 5 out of the last 8 halves that we've lost by double digits. Duke has been seriously outplayed for extended stretches by the last 4 teams (Clemson, Miami, UNC & BC).... I hope K can right the ship.

[COYS]

I said it earlier in the week - we have to beat BC or we will tailspin. I can't back off that now. I'm stopping just short of saying the last nail has been hammered into the coffin. I'll reserve that for the WF game. If we can't find a way to beat them at home, then we are truly toast for the rest of the season.


Look, I'm concerned about what's going on with our team, too, but I just don't understand how any of these games can be the last nail in the coffin. This doesn't even make sense.

[COYS]

This question I had last night got buried in the thread somewhere and I can't find it, but I'd like to get your opinion on a defensive strategy.

Notice in the UNC game, first half, Duke slowed Lawson by having our guard on him all the way up the floor, and then Duke also brought in one of our paint bigs to run an amoeba-like contain on Lawson, beginning right at mid-court. We gave up a stronger defense on the high post, because the Duke big was out at midcourt to help slow Lawson; what we gained was a slower Lawson, who couldn't really create as much and who only scored 4 points that half.

What is your opinion on this defense in terms of helping slow the really terrific, lightning quick guards? Certainly, our interior D is much more vulnerable in that case, but it worked like a magic charm on the Hole guard.

thoughts?

dukestheheat

I think one of the things that has hurt our defense the past few games is stretches of poor shot selection on the offensive end. At the end of the first half, we had a string of possessions where we took shots too early in the shot clock or rushed some long threes. This left many of our guys flattened out along the baseline with only one guy back to play transition defense. We had to scramble to recover. Sometimes we manage to recover nicely, but there were a couple stretches in the game where we either didn't recover in time and gave up some easy shots or we recovered but were forced into bad mismatches. I know a lot of people blame the defense for a loss like last night and we definitely had some miscues and mental errors, but I thought overall many of the defensive problems developed during the stretches when we played our worst offense.

[Faison1]

The pattern in recent years has been that Duke starts out great, often rises to #1 (or close) in the polls, and then starts fading in February. While other teams improve as the season progresses, Duke seems to perform better earlier in the season. The talent is there .... if you accept that McDonalds AAs are talented (Duke has had plenty of them).

It seems that many posters are placing the blame for the recent losses on the players. Maybe a major part of the problem actually is the coaching staff.

Maybe Coach K has become better suited in recent years to build and coach the USA National Team. Maybe the lack of a big guy coach (who actually played 4 or 5) is really a problem. Maybe we miss Johnny Dawkins this year. Maybe Coach K has become too busy with his many outside activities and doesn't have the energy or passion of prior years. A good coaching staff with talented players generally builds a team that improves as the season goes on. That was certainly the case with Duke teams earlier in the K era.

What has happened the last five years?

I've been a great fan of Coach K and Duke for many years. But I'm starting to wonder whether K's better years as a college coach are in the past. I hope that I'm wrong and that this coaching staff and its team can pull together and finish the season on a high note.

I know everyone is probably thinking the same thing, but you're way off base. There have been 3-4 years of questionable recruiting, players leaving early, and coaches with outside activities; and it's manifesting itself in the februaries of the last few years. I'm not too worried, because it looks like K is back and focused for the future/last ten years of his career. Recruiting is looking good, and I'm psyched about the prospect for Nate, Chris C., and maybe Wojo to be on the coaching staff.

There are ups and downs to everyone's careers. Two short examples: 1. Featherston's great article comparing Dean and K....read it if you haven't. Dean had some mediocre years in the middle of his career. 2. A friend of mine who went to graduate school at UNC from 2001-2003. He had to suffer through the glory years of Duke and at the same time UNC's REALLY mediocre years.

I guess my point is, these things come in cycles. It's frustrating to watch, but you better believe K will get things back on track. You think the guy accepts losing???? Heck no!!! I can't think of anyone else who I would rather have in a street fight....can you????? (pound for pound, that is.)

[devildownunder]

OK I have to quibble with this on 2 counts:

First, the biggest issue most of us that are concerned has is that we are either regressing during the season, or other teams are improving much more through the season than we are. Either way all indications are that we're up for another early March exit. The last 2 seasons with mostly the same players make this concern very real and very reasonable.

Second (and this is a pet peeve of mine), it is fallacy to say UNLV was more talented than Duke in '91. We didn't know it at the time, but that Duke team had 3 lottery pick NBAers, just like LV. I'll take primo Hurley, Hill and Leattner over LJ, Stacey Augmon, and Greg Anthony, but I'm biased. Most impartial observers would call it a wash at best. Also, I'd like to point out that the 91 team, although they had 6 losses, were strong in February/March. We lost a total of 3 games--@Wake, @#9 'Zona and vs 'Holes in the ACC Championship!

-c


That zona loss was in double overtime and it was in that game that I became a true believer in Bobby Hurley. I'll never forget him, late in double OT, elevating above guys taller than he was to knock down clutch baseline 3s.

[hustleplays]

These results are only surprising if you exist in an environment where legitimate discussion and criticism are not permitted.

This team has no post. This isn't news.

This team has no PG. This isn't news.

This team has no stars and only one guy who can create his own shot. This isn't news.

If we don't shoot at an above-average clip or play amazing D, we're simply not very good. This is not news.

In the last 3 years K has taken subpar players and made them into solid teams. Kids have played hard but we traded a serious attempt at recruiting for an Olympic gold medal. Let's praise K for doing what he has with the extremely limited tools he's brought in. (The best shovel in the world isn't much good for chopping wood). Let's praise the kids for coming here and giving everything they have.

Unrealistic expectations have been given free reign here. Let's all take a step back, accept what we are, and hope that K's full attention will pay dividends 2-3 years down the road. Until then, let's celebrate the effort, regardless of the results.

Well said. I'm one of those fans who watches Duke with split identities: (1) Let's call it "Legacy Fan" -- all those memories of superior basketball, top talent and total heart. Yes, they lost games, but, wow, how they played when the game was on the line. Remember how Duke was known for finishing first halfs? They were a joy, even when they lost. sigh, get over it Legacy Fan, you have a total right to remember it, long for it, hope for it, dream for it, but don't expect the same thing from this team in this era, which brings me to: (2) "Trying to be Objective B-Ball Fan" sees the team most of us posters see. We're lacking many key pieces to be championship caliber; We try pretty hard most of the time, inexplicably not other times, and often don't have that ferocious will to win (item: did you see the time two dukies were under the basket and the BC guy just went through them for a lay-up?); Our rotation becomes too limited, esp. as the season grinds on, and our young players don't develop; and Live by 3, die by 3, which relates to all of the above, not in a good way. (3) Loyal Duke Fan: No matter how many you win or lose, you're our team. However, Loyal Duke Fan asks just one big thing: ALWAYS play with heart, as a team, and with class. That's not negotiable, and never should be. That's what your Duke jersey means. Go Duke!

[rockymtn devil]

Having only read through about the first 150 posts of this thread last night, I'll add some thoughts.

1. The play that summed up the game for me occurred late in the second half. We had just taken a 1 point lead with around 2 minutes left and, on defense, we set up in a zone. Rice forced a long, ill-advised three that was off-the-mark. Under the basket were four black jerseys and Joe Trapani. Without a single body on him, Trapani got the rebound and was fouled. He made both free throws. Now, instead of being up 1, with the ball and under two minutes, we were down 1. How do you have four black jerseys and no box out? That's the kind of mental lapse that this team--with its limitations--cannot afford.

2. I was pleased to see less threes taken by our guys yesterday. More of the offense seemed (at least to me) to come off the dribble and Kyle was especially aggressive going to the basket. This is a positive sign because, whether we want to hear it or not, this is not a good three point shooting team (34%). I keep hearing we live by the three. Not this year. Die by the three? Yes.

3. We have lost 4 of 6 to teams that are better than us. It's not rocket science. Better teams come out on top more often than not. Does Duke have more talent than BC? Sure. But a player like Rice can upset the talent disparity and make his team better. Duke simply doesn't have a PG that can do that, at least not now. Nolan Smith is effectively replaying his freshmen year because of the position change. He has time to develop into a very good playmaking PG.

[DU Band Prez 88]

Having only read through about the first 150 posts of this thread last night, I'll add some thoughts.

1. The play that summed up the game for me occurred late in the second half. We had just taken a 1 point lead with around 2 minutes left and, on defense, we set up in a zone. Rice forced a long, ill-advised three that was off-the-mark. Under the basket were four black jerseys and Joe Trapani. Without a single body on him, Trapani got the rebound and was fouled. He made both free throws. Now, instead of being up 1, with the ball and under two minutes, we were down 1. How do you have four black jerseys and no box out? That's the kind of mental lapse that this team--with its limitations--cannot afford.

2. I was pleased to see less threes taken by our guys yesterday. More of the offense seemed (at least to me) to come off the dribble and Kyle was especially aggressive going to the basket. This is a positive sign because, whether we want to hear it or not, this is not a good three point shooting team (34%). I keep hearing we live by the three. Not this year. Die by the three? Yes.

3. We have lost 4 of 6 to teams that are better than us. It's not rocket science. Better teams come out on top more often than not. Does Duke have more talent than BC? Sure. But a player like Rice can upset the talent disparity and make his team better. Duke simply doesn't have a PG that can do that, at least not now. Nolan Smith is effectively replaying his freshmen year because of the position change. He has time to develop into a very good playmaking PG.


I disagree with your last point, and also just to correct your math, after last night's loss Duke has only lost 5 games this year (@Mich, @Wake, @Clemson, UNC, @BC), not 6. In my humble opinion, the two teams that Duke has lost to that are better than them are UNC (clearly a better team) and Clemson (slightly better, if anything only because of Booker). And, both UNC and Clemson can certainly claim to be better than Duke this year based on double-digit wins. Wake Forest may be superior talent-wise than Duke, but I don't think they are a better team than Duke, and they will go down next weekend at Cameron.

I believe that we will give Carolina a great game at the Dean Dome and can beat them there - not definitely WILL beat them, but can beat them and spoil Hansbrough's last home game - what fun that would be!

[rockymtn devil]

I disagree with your last point, and also just to correct your math, after last night's loss Duke has only lost 5 games this year (@Mich, @Wake, @Clemson, UNC, @BC), not 6. In my humble opinion, the two teams that Duke has lost to that are better than them are UNC (clearly a better team) and Clemson (slightly better, if anything only because of Booker). And, both UNC and Clemson can certainly claim to be better than Duke this year based on double-digit wins. Wake Forest may be superior talent-wise than Duke, but I don't think they are a better team than Duke, and they will go down next weekend at Cameron.

I said Duke has lost 4 of 6, which is true. Four of our last six games have been losses (BC, UNC, Miami, Clemson, Virginia, Wake Forest). I did not say that Duke has lost 6 games.

[MB in MD]

I didn't get to see the first half yesterday because of the hockey game up here so I don't know if this comment has anything to do with why we did better in the first half of yesterday's game, but in thinking about our recent defensive woes I am not sure we are paying enough attention to what we are giving up when we don't play Zoubek. Sure his footwork isn't great, and no one will mistake him for the Landlord, but it seems to me that the guard penetration that has been eating us up lately doesn't happen as much when he is in a game. I also think that the fact that he doesn't participate in all the switches, but hedges and stays home (when in fact he does it well), also helps protect the paint. In some matchups against a mobile 5, most obviously Greg Monroe, he clearly can't compete, but I think because he looks awkward we underestimate just what his big body does when it is in there.

Looking at Jumbo's +/-, if you look at pretty much any combination of 4 of 5 of Kyle, G, Scheyer, Smith and Paulus, the addition of Zoubek does more for us than adding either of the other bigs. I realize this is something of a post-hoc ergo propter hoc type of argument, but I also don't think it should be ignored completely.

[dukediv2013]

The '10 UNC inside game...
Deon Thompson at center. Ed Davis at PF. Zeller rotating in. John Henson on the wing. All big guys. Oh, and the Wear twins.

Just sayin' :)

Just sayin' that UNC will struggle without Lawson, Hansbrough, Green, and Ellington. Who will be your point guard? Bobby Frasor (GP's twin) or Larry Drew II who obviously hasn't matured in the way that Roy has wanted this season. Duke will only lose 3 guys (Henderson, Paulus, and McClure) and with the addition of Kelly and Plumlee, we will be a much stronger team in the front court than this year. We will also have the edge at PG with Nolan Smith and the edge at SG with Scheyer, not to mention Singler at SF as opposed to PF.

[tele]

Given how well BC shot the ball, and how poorly Duke shot, have to give this team credit for playing really hard and somehow keeping themselves in the game with a chance to win it. BC made some shots I couldn't even believe they took, let alone made.

Duke took a few shots I wondered about too. If you haven't been shooting the ball well it's usually a good idea to either get the ball to someone who is shooting well, or else, limit yourself to really easy shots. Repeatedly bricking shots at key points of the game doesn't display good decision making, especially for a point guard. On the other hand, if one of your strengths is 3 point shooting, and the team needs help in this, then you have to shoot the 3. Otherwise, you're not helping the team, and the team might be better off with a stronger defensive or ball handling player on the floor.

After reading all the posts with concerns about the duke guard positions, I'm suprised someone hasn't brought up the need for another small man coach?

[HDB]

I haven't had a chance to read through everything, but came away from the game with two thoughts:

1. Through the Clemson game, this team had established a Defense first mentality. They showed it on the court, and we heard it in the player quotes. I understand that Paulus earned the opportunity to start, and the recent losses certainly are not his fault. Moreover, Nolan is not making a compelling argument for more PT. Still, I think the team is suffering from an identity crisis. With Greg at the point, we cannot be a dominant defense team. So, then, what are we? I think that is what we are seeing. Personally, I'd prefer to get back to the defensive focus, even with Nolan playing poorly.

2. We didn't play terrible. This, again, shows that, while we are a good team, we have little room for error. This is another reason I wish we would reestablish the defensive identity. With so many players in pronounced offensive slumps, we need defense to lead the way.

I agree with this post --- I'd prefer to see Nolan reinserted into the starting lineup for defensive purposes. However, I think it's unlikely it will happen for two reasons: first and foremost, Nolan hasn't responded well to losing his starting assignment and second I think K decided that Paulus would be the starter for the rest of the year, come hell or high water, due to the leadership he provides.

[DU Band Prez 88]

I said Duke has lost 4 of 6, which is true. Four of our last six games have been losses (BC, UNC, Miami, Clemson, Virginia, Wake Forest). I did not say that Duke has lost 6 games.

OK, you're correct, I misunderstood how you worded things...still, I stand by what I said that UNC and Clemson are the only two teams that are better than us, and we'll beat Wake this weekend.

[dc007]

I certainly agree with Repoman as well. I would also like to point out that Duke continues to be a perimeter team. You can have good teams that are perimeter teams but great teams will always have a presence in the paint. We have been lacking that for sometime:(. Oh and nice to have found this forum...:)


I haven't had a chance to read through everything, but came away from the game with two thoughts:

1. Through the Clemson game, this team had established a Defense first mentality. They showed it on the court, and we heard it in the player quotes. I understand that Paulus earned the opportunity to start, and the recent losses certainly are not his fault. Moreover, Nolan is not making a compelling argument for more PT. Still, I think the team is suffering from an identity crisis. With Greg at the point, we cannot be a dominant defense team. So, then, what are we? I think that is what we are seeing. Personally, I'd prefer to get back to the defensive focus, even with Nolan playing poorly.

2. We didn't play terrible. This, again, shows that, while we are a good team, we have little room for error. This is another reason I wish we would reestablish the defensive identity. With so many players in pronounced offensive slumps, we need defense to lead the way.

[SMO]

After reading all the posts with concerns about the duke guard positions, I'm suprised someone hasn't brought up the need for another small man coach?

Now that is funny! The only thing that surpasses the comedy of the "solution du jour" on these boards is some posters' abilities to parody them.

[DukeVu]

After reading all the posts with concerns about the duke guard positions, I'm suprised someone hasn't brought up the need for another small man coach?

You would think with three ex-guard coaches that they could develop a decent backcourt. The guard offense against BC consisted of passing lackadaisically around the perimiter

I believe Thomas played a decent offensive game (for him) but the big man defense was atrocious. I cannot remember seeing so many poorly-contested shots under the basket. Thomas is just not the answer. Zoubec spends entirely too much time chasing outside the paint because he is so immobile.
Surely some kind of defense could be derived to keep him around the basket where at least his length would cause multiple problems.

[LSanders]

... in thinking about our recent defensive woes I am not sure we are paying enough attention to what we are giving up when we don't play Zoubek. Sure his footwork isn't great, and no one will mistake him for the Landlord, but it seems to me that the guard penetration that has been eating us up lately doesn't happen as much when he is in a game.

MB's thoughts are basically what I've been thinking about the most. We all know K's preference for fast, skilled players at all five positions. I'm sure he was dejected to lose Monroe (as were all of us), but, IMO, Z has more to offer than he's given credit for offering. I know he's working, and I'm sure the coaches are trying to improve his footwork, help defense, and ball-handling in the post, etc.. Still, there's no question his seven foot frame has a serious effect on dribble penetration.

More importantly, he does make the possibility of an inside out game more of a reality. I went back and watched his highlight vid on YouTube. He looked good. Sure that was against HS talent, not D-1, ACC talent, but the kid has something to offer. K's famous for saying he tries to find a system that matches the strengths of his kids. Z's not going to be mistaken for Jabbar any time soon, but if I was the coach, I'd take a serious look at whatever 4-man rotations I wanted to use to surround Z. And, yes, I know his weaknesses from missing assignments, allowing himself to be lured out of the paint, getting into foul trouble, etc. What I'm wondering is ... how many of those sins would be eliminated with a scheme of letting Z be Z and letting the other four play K-ball? Such a scheme might also help weary legs get a much needed break during the game.

Obviously, there are many on this board who will and do scoff at this idea, but, it seems that most of those arguments are based on a scheme of trying to do what the coaches are currently trying to do, which seems to be asking Z to be someone he's not. He's not Monroe ... but he can still play. He's not Shel or Booker or Hanstravel ... but he can has something to offer.

I graduated in '87 and, for 20+ years, have watched K consistently get more out of his players than any other coach in America could get. Where would Duke be if K had UNC's talent ... AND ... where would the Holes be if they had our guys? That said, I also wouldn't trade places. I love these kids and love their heart. They are a credit to Duke. Hopefully, Hole fans feel the same about their guys. There's nobody I trust more to figure out the best solution than K. The purpose of this post is simply to offer more support for "the Z option" as a topic for discussion or derision ... you take your pick.

[rsvman]

I listened to the game on XM as it was broadcast by Boston College homers, and all I can say is that Duke players and Duke fans need the attitude the BC announcers displayed.

When Scheyer hit from the corner to give Duke its first lead in a long time (near the end of the game), the announcers thought BC was doomed. They were practically apoplectic. Paraphrasing, this is essentially what they said, "Well, you can't turn the ball over 19 times and expect to win against a team as good as Duke," and "The margin for error is SO slim when you're playing a great team like Duke."

Seriously, the very second Duke fought its way back and took the lead, they threw in the towel. It seems to me that it's been that way for a long time; when the opposing team lost the lead near the end of the game, Duke never gave it back. They "just knew" they were going to win. The other team "just knew" they were going to lose.

That's what this team needs. More of that killer instinct. More of that will that refuses to allow themselves to lose. Last night's game was there for the taking, and they let it slip away, giving up too many important offensive rebounds on late possessions and allowing BCs best shooter to have an unobstructed view of the rim at a very inopportune time.


Unlike some of you, I don't think the season is over. We need Scheyer back to mid-season form. We need Nolan Smith not to play scared. If we get those two things, we can still win some important games down the stretch, including beating the Heels at the Dean Dump.

[Oriole Way]

Here goes...:

1) Plumlee and EWill NEED. TO. PLAY. Zoubek has shown very little on the positive side for a good long while, and Scheyer appears to be getting tired out on the wing. I was really encouraged a few games ago when EWill was the first man off the bench, but since then he and Miles have seen about as much of the court as I have. Miles appears to be a more effective player than Zoubek in every aspect of the game save passing. The "but they're defensive liabilities" argument that I've heard a couple times around these parts doesn't cut it when the rest of the team is playing crappy D, too. Bottom line, both Miles and Elliot need to play.

2) As I said a few weeks ago in another thread, this team simply cannot afford a subpar defensive effort. Because our offense tends not to put up scores in the mid-80's, our defense has to be fantastic every night for us to beat above average teams. Think about carolina--if they don't score 85+, a lot of teams can beat them because the tarholes play below average offense. By contrast, carolina can survive another team putting up 85+ if its offense is clicking (see: Wednesday), just as Duke can survive a half or more of terrible offense if its defense is in top form (see: Florida State). Time to step up. As of late, our switching has been attrocious, and our help-side hasn't been much better. Anyone remember the play where Z got beat for the alley-oop? Totally out of position. That can't happen.

3) Lance is our starting center, and that's that. IMO he should have been all along. He's our most aggressive, best shooting, and most basketball-savvy 5-man, and it's not even close. I love Dave, but his lack of an offensive game makes him best suited to come off the bench and play WITH LT/Z/Miles, not in their place.

4) I think the demotion to the bench has really flustered Nolan. I'm of the mind that Greg should start, but I also think that our two PG's should roughly split time. Would also like to see Elliot come in to spell whichever is in the game and have Scheyer run the point some.

5) Speaking of Scheyer, he needs to shoot the ball less and drive more. Xavier and a few other games aside, he's been much more effective when he's driving, dishing, and getting fouled. As many pundits have been saying for 2+ years, he's a much better "scorer" than he is a "shooter". I've noticed that the three-ball from the corner--a shot he seems to get all the time--has recently become a particular Achilles Heel of his. Not saying he shouldn't fire if he's open, but he certainly needs to be more selective. When he drives to the hoop, he's playing to his greatest strength: his free-throw shooting. Driving also draws defenders, enabling guys like G, Kyle, and Greg to relocate for open threes.

6) The fact that we're fast becoming the Gerald and Kyle show is, to say the least, disconcerting. This reminds me of '05-'06. That year, we were the JJ and Shelden show; if one of them had an off-night, we were in serious jeopardy of losing (see: Georgetown--JJ dropped 40+ and Shelden had something like 2). As most of you know, both of those guys have their jerseys in the rafters. Kyle and Gerald aren't at that level yet, so even when they both play great the games will be close unless someone else steps up.

Yikes. Hopefully we'll turn this around. Our next six games aren't pretty--we've got FSU, Wake, and chapel hill. I can only take so much "Next Play" rhetoric: let's turn this ship around.

I really agree with all of your points. I'm glad someone else sees a lot of the same problems and possible solutions that I do.

A poster earlier mentioned that Paulus will continue to start for the rest of the season because of his leadership. I fear that he is correct. If Paulus continues to start and get major minutes, I feel that it will be a kiss of death for this team. Paulus is a great competitor, but it's not a coincidence that Duke's defense has gotten significantly worse since he's been re-inserted into the starting lineup.

I'm aware that Nolan could be injured, and he's played terribly as well, but he still plays far superior defense. Our point guard establishes our pressure defens and sets the tone for the defense in several ways. Smith needs to start and guard the opposing PG for this team to have a chance of turning the season around.

Pumlee and Williams need to play. Our starters, Singler and Scheyer in particular, have already started showing signs of tiring yet again. I am incredibly frustrated by K's refusal to even consider playing these guys for a few minutes in the first half, even if it's just to steal 10-12 minutes for the starters.

[g4orce]

Some random thoughts that have been going through my head since last night:

1: just recently, I heard K use the word "fragile" in ref to this team. Following the play of Scheyer, Paulus & Smith, I think that word is appropriate. It seems to me that they are letting the last play (missed shot, turn-over) bring them down into a funk. For that matter, G and Singler have both been trending that way over the last several games, and not just since the Clemson game. I think that game just exemplified what we were all seeing, but it just so happened that everyone hit the funk at the same time. My question is, how do we shake it off? Is it as simple as steam-rolling another team, like St Johns, or is it a gritty-win maybe against WF? I don't pretend to have the answer, but...

2: The '91 team lost 7 games. OMG! Did everyone panic and cry that the season was over? UNLV & UNC were picked by EVERYONE to be in the FF, and that UNC was the only team deemed humanly possible to even come close to beating UNLV. Funny thing happened, though: Koubeck, who had considered leaving mid-year, came to K and had a gut-check. K told him that he was glue to the team and - guess what - he bought it. He left his ego behind and was ultimately the reason that we beat UNLV. Yeah, everyone else made some great plays & points, but it was his defensive effort that shut down their inside game. We even lost to UNC in the ACC Tourney by 18, 3 weeks before winning it all.

I said that b/c I think that a player or two on our 2008-09 team needs to have a gut-check about what their expected performance is to be and live up to their potential. I know that the season is long, and that arms & legs get tired, but there is no excuse to not give it your 100% when you get on the floor. Not to throw anyone under the bus, but I think we have a few players who have their head-up-their-hiney, and it they need to get it out NOW!

I still believe in this team and think that we still have quite a bit of gas in the tank, but someone needs to get behind the wheel during gametime and steer us to a win. K and the coaches can't play the game.

[jv001]

Some random thoughts that have been going through my head since last night:



I said that b/c I think that a player or two on our 2008-09 team needs to have a gut-check about what their expected performance is to be and live up to their potential. I know that the season is long, and that arms & legs get tired, but there is no excuse to not give it your 100% when you get on the floor. Not to throw anyone under the bus, but I think we have a few players who have their head-up-their-hiney, and it they need to get it out NOW!

I still believe in this team and think that we still have quite a bit of gas in the tank, but someone needs to get behind the wheel during gametime and steer us to a win. K and the coaches can't play the game.

I listened to Coach K discuss the BC game with Bob Harris on the radio and for one of the few times that I remember. He was ticked off/disappointed. After watching the game that I recorded, I can see why. We gave up way too many break-aways by not getting back on defense. Coach K mentioned that we fouled a player that was taking a bad shot. This was toward the end of the game and those were big points. Greg and Jon made two very bad passes by just being careless. We failed to rebound the ball when we did stop BC at the end of the game. It just looks like we have some players(not all) who can't handle the pressure. This was just what Coach K did not want to happen to this years team. He wanted them to have fun, play loose, and not try to please everyone by trying to live up to the Duke hype. I hope these young men get back to that way of playing. Go Duke!

[InSpades]

I love Greg Paulus, but he's just not having a very effective senior year. His defense is sub-par, but it always has been, however this year he is not making up for it on the offensive end of the court.

Nolan Smith has been great in spurts, but he has not been the savior at point guard that we had hoped. He may turn into a good point guard, but he's not there yet. His assist to turnover ratio is less than 1 and he's not the most efficient shooter either.

On a points-per-shot basis, Smith and Paulus are the worst of all regular contributors (the 8 players who regularly see the court). They are also no better than the rest of the team in assists either (whether you look per game or per minute, their #s are about in line with the rest of the perimeter players).

So my question is... do we really need 1 of the 2 on the court at all times? Would a lineup of Scheyer, Henderson, McClure, Singler and Thomas be that bad? I think those are currently the 5 best players on this Duke team, let's see them all on the court at the same time!

I realize people think McClure is an offensive liability, and in some ways he is. But he more than makes up for it in other ways. He is actually shooting better than 50% from the floor. I realize he benefits from the fact that he only shoots when he is very open, but is that such a bad thing? He also doesn't turn the ball over very much (he has by far the best assist-to-turnover ratio on the team). He also seems to play better in bigger games (2 of his best games this year were against Miami and Wake).

I'm not saying the above 5 listed players should start, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing them on the court when the game is on the line. I think what we will miss out on is more than made up for by what we gain.

[brumby041]

In the first half of the UNC game, Duke employed a great strategy to 'slow' Lawson; we had our PG on Lawson all the way up the floor, and at the same time, we'd bring one of our bigger guys up near midcourt to help with the double team. It came off like an 'amoeba double'...sorta slide/slide/contain!

This worked really well and Lawson didn't create a whole lot and more importantly, he scored only 4 points in that half.

We seemed to go away from this in the second half, and then Lawson went crazy; either that, or Carolina was able to capitalize on many Duke misses and get out to midcourt much more quickly than in the first half, and whatever D we could muster wasn't effective.

So, when we face a quick guard (our Achille's Heel, no pun intended), based on what we all saw in the first half of the Carolina game, shouldn't we employ this slide/slide/contain double D at midcourt much more often?

The one thing we give up is solid defense on that high post....but if we can slow the speedy guard and then pressure that first pass, maybe the high post won't matter?

What's your opinion on the defense?

thanks,

dth.


Agree. Since Singler is so long, he can really disrupt the entry pass from the guard. Seemed like he had several tips in the first half of the BC game when Duke was running that press on the inbounds.

I'm not sure about the effectiveness of that 1-3-1 zone. If we really want to stop the opposing PG, why not use a 2-1-2 zone and trap up top?* If nothing else, it would tend to get the ball out of the hands of the quick PG...

(*Note: Not criticizing K, just asking. I coach my kid's rec teams, and I'm always looking to learn something. In a similar situation, I've used the trap described above with good results. Is there some reason that this wouldn't work in the college game?)

[jv001]

I love Greg Paulus, but he's just not having a very effective senior year. His defense is sub-par, but it always has been, however this year he is not making up for it on the offensive end of the court.

Nolan Smith has been great in spurts, but he has not been the savior at point guard that we had hoped. He may turn into a good point guard, but he's not there yet. His assist to turnover ratio is less than 1 and he's not the most efficient shooter either.

On a points-per-shot basis, Smith and Paulus are the worst of all regular contributors (the 8 players who regularly see the court). They are also no better than the rest of the team in assists either (whether you look per game or per minute, their #s are about in line with the rest of the perimeter players).

So my question is... do we really need 1 of the 2 on the court at all times? Would a lineup of Scheyer, Henderson, McClure, Singler and Thomas be that bad? I think those are currently the 5 best players on this Duke team, let's see them all on the court at the same time!

I realize people think McClure is an offensive liability, and in some ways he is. But he more than makes up for it in other ways. He is actually shooting better than 50% from the floor. I realize he benefits from the fact that he only shoots when he is very open, but is that such a bad thing? He also doesn't turn the ball over very much (he has by far the best assist-to-turnover ratio on the team). He also seems to play better in bigger games (2 of his best games this year were against Miami and Wake).

I'm not saying the above 5 listed players should start, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing them on the court when the game is on the line. I think what we will miss out on is more than made up for by what we gain.

I hear what you're saying, but a lineup of Henderson, McClure, Thomas, Singler and Scheyer would still have a hard time playing defense against quick guards. We know Coach K is going to play man to man and someone has to guard the point guard. I know some say that Dave can do that, but he has not been able to guard the real good point guards. Let's face it Nolan Smith is the only current player that has shown that ability. And even he gets beaten some of the time. I like the lineup of Nolan, Gerald, Kyle, Brian and Lance. Then the bench would be: Jon, Greg, Miles, Elliot and Dave. As you said it's not who starts but who is on the court when the game is on the line. Go Duke!

[pfrduke]

I really agree with all of your points. I'm glad someone else sees a lot of the same problems and possible solutions that I do.

A poster earlier mentioned that Paulus will continue to start for the rest of the season because of his leadership. I fear that he is correct. If Paulus continues to start and get major minutes, I feel that it will be a kiss of death for this team. Paulus is a great competitor, but it's not a coincidence that Duke's defense has gotten significantly worse since he's been re-inserted into the starting lineup.

I'm aware that Nolan could be injured, and he's played terribly as well, but he still plays far superior defense. Our point guard establishes our pressure defens and sets the tone for the defense in several ways. Smith needs to start and guard the opposing PG for this team to have a chance of turning the season around.

Pumlee and Williams need to play. Our starters, Singler and Scheyer in particular, have already started showing signs of tiring yet again. I am incredibly frustrated by K's refusal to even consider playing these guys for a few minutes in the first half, even if it's just to steal 10-12 minutes for the starters.

I don't disagree that Smith is a better defender. Nonetheless, over the last four game stretch, the defense has actually been pretty poor when he's been on the court; worse, in fact, than when Paulus has been on the court. Against Clemson, Miami, UNC, and BC, Duke has given up 149 points in the 115 defensive possessions that Nolan has played, or 1.3 points per possession. When Paulus has been in, those numbers are 216 points in 199 possessions - still not good defense, but a much better 1.085 points per possession. Broken down further, it actually gets worse for Smith. Lineups with Smith and Paulus together have given up 37 points in 31 possessions over the last four games, 1.19 points per possession. Lineups that have Paulus without Smith are at 179 points in 168 possessions, 1.065 points per. Lineups that have Smith without Paulus are at 112 in 84, which is 1.33 points per.

Against BC, our defense was incredibly porous when Smith was in the game. He played 29 possessions, during which time BC scored 42 points, hitting 12 of 14 from 2 and 5 of 7 from 3, getting 13 assists on those 17 field goals. Obviously not all of those points fall on him, but our defense was no good on Sunday regardless of who was playing point.

This is not to argue that Paulus is a better defender. It's only to say that it's too simplistic to say that our defensive woes derive from his insertion into the starting lineup. At the very least, Nolan's defensive superiority has had zero impact on the team's defense in the last four games.

[brumby041]

Laettner wasn't a typical big man, but he was 6'11 and put up 20 ppg/9 rpg. If I'm not mistaken he was also a pretty gritty defender. A player like that (or even a McRoberts or Cherokee Parks) could complete the current team. Laettner scored and rebounded more than our entire front court.

Ah, the Chief.

I'm not going to rag on Zoubek; I like him and think that his earlier injuries have retarded his development. I don't, however, understand why he won't DUNK.

One thing I always loved about Cherokee: If he got beat on the defensive end or felt that the ref had made a bad call, the next time down the floor, he went hard to the rim and DUNKED with authority. Loved the attitude.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

Ah, the Chief.

I'm not going to rag on Zoubek; I like him and think that his earlier injuries have retarded his development. I don't, however, understand why he won't DUNK.

One thing I always loved about Cherokee: If he got beat on the defensive end or felt that the ref had made a bad call, the next time down the floor, he went hard to the rim and DUNKED with authority. Loved the attitude.

You know that he can dunk, I have seen videos. Even if he had a 6 inch vertical, that could get his hands 6 inches above the rim.

[roywhite]

You know that he can dunk, I have seen videos. Even if he had a 6 inch vertical, that could get his hands 6 inches above the rim.

Throw it down, big guy!

I'm rooting for Zoubs, but I think he's had more shots of his own blocked recently than he has blocked. A 7-footer as a shotblockee rather than a shotblocker. Awk...

Ideally, you'd like to get the ball to him as he is going to the basket; he catches, continues his movement, and finishes. He has also made some baskets off taps and follow-ups recently.