Bronx Bombers with steal

[jimsumner]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3511535

Kyle Farnsworth for Pudge Rodriguez. Even up. Wow.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3511535

Kyle Farnsworth for Pudge Rodriguez. Even up. Wow.

I'm thrilled, because Pudge is still one heckuva catcher and hopefully hitter. But quite honestly, Kyle was having the better year. He pitched a 28 batter no-hitter. Granted, it was over 10 games, one inning at a time, but still, quite an accomplishment. Edwar Ramirez has/had a similar streak going, not sure if it's been broken yet. Yesterday, he got thrown out after one pitch for throwing that pitch over the batter's head when he started the 7th inning in relief.

Jose Molina was doing a great job defensively for the Yanks, and did come up with some timely hits (and runner advances), but it will be nice to have a (near) .300 hitter in the lineup in his place. And X Nady finally got his first hits for the Yanks, after starting 0 for 3 games.

Did anyone notice that the Yanks and Sox are tied with 48 losses now? Both trail Minnesota by 1 loss for the wild card spot - way to early to worry about that - we've got a division to win!

Will the Sox trade Manny today? I doubt it - he's still a fabulous hitter. I'll trade Nady for Manny even up any day and let Manny be Manny in NY.

[Olympic Fan]

As much as I love the Yankees, I'm not as enthused as Jim is about this deal.

The Yankees need to ADD pitching ... not subtract it. Farnsworth was maturing into a decent setup man. I understand that they just added Marte, but remember that they also subtracted Chamberlain from the bullpen.

I like getting Pudge, but he's not the same player he was four years ago. Defensively, I'm not sure he's as good as Molina has been this year. Offensively, he's an upgrade at catcher (since Posada can't catch any more), but he's no longer a huge bat. I hope he brings some of the aggressiveness and leadership skills that he's renowned for.

Overall, is it really an upgrade for the team to weaken itself in its weakest area to make a slight upgrade at catcher? And is it a steal to give up a solid middle reliever to rent an aging former all-star for the last two months of the season?

[billybreen]

My dad and I are meeting in NY this weekend to see Sunday's game. Neither of us has seen a game at Yankee Stadium, so last chance.

[BlueDevilJay]

You honestly think the Yankees got a 'steal' in this trade? The Yankees need pitching, not an over the hill catcher. I know Posada went out, but what is Pudge really going to give you? Not a heck of a lot other than experience. That, and considering the Tigers needed pitching pretty bad, at least in the relief department, I think the Tigers got the best of this trade by a long shot. Farnesworth can still bring heat. Guess its just in how you look at it, and what tint the glasses are that you're viewing it through. Probably a good trade for both teams, but I don't think the Yankees really stole anything there.

[jimsumner]

Yes, I do think the Yankees got a steal. Pudge clearly isn't the catcher he was five years ago but he's still a huge upgrade over Molina and Moeller, mainly because he's batting almost .300. He can't play every day anymore and I'm sure the Yankees understand that. But with Posada and Matsui out, the Yankees need a bat.

I have no idea if the Yanks intend to sign Pudge in the off-season but it looks like Posada's days as a full-time catcher are gone and I don't see anyone winning the post-season with Molina as the starting catcher. Molina is a solid career back-up, nothing more, nothing less.

Pitching? I think they need another starter and was delighted at the now cooled-off rumors that they could move Igawa to Seattle for Washburn in a salary dump. Farnsworth was having a redemptive season but my understanding is the Yanks expect Bruney to come off the DL soon and take his place. Besides Marte is better than just your basic lefty specialist. I think he can be the eighth-inning guy.

Wanna be truly scared? The Yankees are actually talking about Pavano coming back this fall. Hopefully, Wang, Hughes, even Kennedy will return before then and preclude that dire possibility.

The last time I was in the stadium was last summer, when the Yankees played Toronto. Farnsworth came in late, 7th or 8th inning. It is a truly eerie experience to hear 40,000 people rise in unision and loudly boo one of their own players. I knew that he was unpopular in the Bronx but you have to hear it in person to really understand.

Even with his performance this year, most of the core fans seemed to have given up on Farnsworth and were waiting for him to fail. He simply had the appearance of a player primed to struggle in high-profile performances and I suspect he's as glad to leave NYC as the fans are to see him leave.

[BlueDevilBaby]

Wanna be truly scared? The Yankees are actually talking about Pavano coming back this fall.

As a Yankees fan, I was shaking in my shoes when I saw he had a rehab start in A ball. Brian, Please keep him there. As for the Pudge trade, I'm all for it - Pudge is better than Molina and Moeller, they need a bat, and it did not end up being LoDuca, even though I really want my Nats to get rid of him.

[Mal]

Transferring my unbroken streak of disagreeing with everything bdj posts from the PPB over here ;), I too think this is a lopsided Yankee win:

1. A starting catcher has a heck of a lot more impact on a team than a 7th/8th inning reliever. If you consider Pudge and Farnsworth as "equal" to each other in terms of where their performances sit compared to others at their respective positions this year, Pudge is still vastly more important to a team's overall strength.

2. A 3.65 ERA is fairly mediocre these days for a setup guy. Guys with the ability to be as effective as Farnsworth are a dime a dozen. I just have a hard time believing Detroit couldn't have gone and gotten any of a handful of guys to help their bullpen after Jones broke down without giving up their Hall of Fame bound catcher and a clubhouse leader.

3. 2/3 of a good season for Farnsworth likely just means the meltdown is still to come. You can pretty much count on Rodriguez continuing to hit close to .300 and provide solid defense. Not to mention his impact in leadership, calling games and helping the Yankees young starters (not that Posada didn't bring any of these to the table, but we're talking about the best defensive catcher of the last half century - Posada is the best defensive catcher on the Yankees since the guy he took over for :)).

4. The Yankees were desperate at C before this trade, due to Posada's injury. They're fairly well bailed out by this, and will easily fill Farnsworth's role from within. The Tigers, on the other hand, were hurting in the bullpen, but had started to win with their offense and are very much in the race in the only division in the AL they'd have a chance at winning. Now they're going to have to rely on Inge, who's hitting .227 and hasn't caught full time in 5 years, behind the plate. That's a recipe for disaster, and they don't get much of an upgrade over an unproven AAA'er in the bullpen.

I just don't see why Detroit made this deal.

[dukie8]

1. A starting catcher has a heck of a lot more impact on a team than a 7th/8th inning reliever. If you consider Pudge and Farnsworth as "equal" to each other in terms of where their performances sit compared to others at their respective positions this year, Pudge is still vastly more important to a team's overall strength.

in a vacuum, yes, but molina is every bit as good defensively as pudge (he may even be a tad better at this point and the pitch staff already is very comfortable with him -- we have no idea how long it will take for it to get comfortable with pudge). offensively, you guys need to take the blinders off. pudge is one of the best catchers off all time but he is in major decline. want to know what his stats are this year? try .295, 5hr, 33 runs and 32 rbi in 302 abs in a lineup that is A LOT better than what the yanks have been trotting out there this year. those are hardly numbers of a hitter than is going to make a difference in the lineup (btw, molina, at the very bottom of the order is .226, 0hr, 21 runs and 11 rbi in 195 abs. there are A LOT of catchers who can hit a lot better than pudge if hitting was such a concern (how about part timer laird on texas?)


2. A 3.65 ERA is fairly mediocre these days for a setup guy. Guys with the ability to be as effective as Farnsworth are a dime a dozen. I just have a hard time believing Detroit couldn't have gone and gotten any of a handful of guys to help their bullpen after Jones broke down without giving up their Hall of Fame bound catcher and a clubhouse leader.

era for relievers is one of the more meaningless stats in baseball because they don't pitch enough innings. 1 bad shelling and a reliever's era basically is done for the year. moreover, a guy like farnsworth entered a lot of games with men on -- and gave up hits that caused runs for someone else, leaving his era untouched. i am very happy to see him gone because there is no way that he was going to go anything other than get shelled in the big games. he has done it without fail his entire career with the yanks. he has a ton of talent but absolutely cannot get it done when it matters most.


3. 2/3 of a good season for Farnsworth likely just means the meltdown is still to come. You can pretty much count on Rodriguez continuing to hit close to .300 and provide solid defense. Not to mention his impact in leadership, calling games and helping the Yankees young starters (not that Posada didn't bring any of these to the table, but we're talking about the best defensive catcher of the last half century - Posada is the best defensive catcher on the Yankees since the guy he took over for :)).

as discussed above, pudge isn't going to give you anything offensively -- he is in the bottom half of catchers hitting-wise -- and you are incorrect thinking that he is a better defensive catcher than molina. molina has a cannon for an arm and it basically has been impossible to run on him this year (he was leading the league in throwing out base runners). moreover, he has done a great job with the misfits the yanks have been rolling out as starting pitchers this year. the fact that they are this close to the wildcard and 1st place without wong is nothing short of remarkable and a lot of that credit has to go to molina.


4. The Yankees were desperate at C before this trade, due to Posada's injury. They're fairly well bailed out by this, and will easily fill Farnsworth's role from within. The Tigers, on the other hand, were hurting in the bullpen, but had started to win with their offense and are very much in the race in the only division in the AL they'd have a chance at winning. Now they're going to have to rely on Inge, who's hitting .227 and hasn't caught full time in 5 years, behind the plate. That's a recipe for disaster, and they don't get much of an upgrade over an unproven AAA'er in the bullpen.

I just don't see why Detroit made this deal.

they were only desperate because the media made them out to be desperate. they are much more desperate for playoff quality starting pitching and a bridge to rivera with no joba. this is typical cashman -- making an idiotic move that just rearranges the deck chairs of the titanic and doesn't address the real issues of the team. do you have any confidence in any of the starting pitchers in the playoffs (assuming they get there)? beckett made wong look like a AA pitcher last year. the seeds of this season were sown when cashman refused to trade hughes and kennedy for santana in the offseason.

i'm glad to see farnsworth gone but having light hitting pudge catching isn't going to do anything to the offense. detroit made the deal because it probably decided not to resign pudge in the offseason (he is going to want too much money) (sound familiar yanks with posada?) and at least it can get something for him (albeit a choker middle reliever).

[Scoring Point]

When Farnsworth was with the Cubs, he was widely referred to as "Meat", based on implied similarities to the Nuke Laloosh (Tim Robbins) character from Bull Durham (i.e. million dollar arm, 2 cent head). He seems to have improved ever so marginally since then. I wouldn't be holding my breath for any sort of lasting breakthrough at this point in his career.

[Mal]

in a vacuum, yes, but molina is every bit as good defensively as pudge (he may even be a tad better at this point and the pitch staff already is very comfortable with him -- we have no idea how long it will take for it to get comfortable with pudge). offensively, you guys need to take the blinders off. pudge is one of the best catchers off all time but he is in major decline. want to know what his stats are this year? try .295, 5hr, 33 runs and 32 rbi in 302 abs in a lineup that is A LOT better than what the yanks have been trotting out there this year. those are hardly numbers of a hitter than is going to make a difference in the lineup (btw, molina, at the very bottom of the order is .226, 0hr, 21 runs and 11 rbi in 195 abs. there are A LOT of catchers who can hit a lot better than pudge if hitting was such a concern (how about part timer laird on texas?)

Pudge's OPS is currently right in the middle of AL starting catchers, and about .170 higher than Molina's. I don't think I claimed he's still a world beater, just that it's an upgrade over having Molina in the order every day or getting Moeller tons of AB's. My larger point here, again, was that nailing down a critical field position and lineup spot (even if you don't think Pudge is an upgrade from Molina, you need the depth) has more impact than getting another setup guy.


era for relievers is one of the more meaningless stats in baseball because they don't pitch enough innings. 1 bad shelling and a reliever's era basically is done for the year. moreover, a guy like farnsworth entered a lot of games with men on -- and gave up hits that caused runs for someone else, leaving his era untouched. i am very happy to see him gone because there is no way that he was going to go anything other than get shelled in the big games. he has done it without fail his entire career with the yanks. he has a ton of talent but absolutely cannot get it done when it matters most.

I don't think we're in disagreement here, and I think it reinforces my point. Detroit just gave up their starting catcher and a prominent member of their clubhouse for what we both agree is a flame-throwing choke artist. How's that not a bad deal for the Tigers? If you don't like ERA, then Farnsworth's WHIP is 1.35. Not so good.


the fact that they are this close to the wildcard and 1st place without wong is nothing short of remarkable and a lot of that credit has to go to molina.

I think you might be overstating the importance of Wang being out (you yourself mentioned how he got shown up against Boston last year). Just like last year, his W-L is great, but his ERA's over 4 and he was sporting a 1.32 WHIP. I hesitate to call him the "luckiest" pitcher out there, but I have to think his run support numbers must be pretty out of whack. I also don't think it should ever be remarkable that a lineup with ARod, Jeter, Giambi, Abreu, and Cano is in the race at the end of July.


this is typical cashman -- making an idiotic move that just rearranges the deck chairs of the titanic and doesn't address the real issues of the team. do you have any confidence in any of the starting pitchers in the playoffs (assuming they get there)? beckett made wong look like a AA pitcher last year. the seeds of this season were sown when cashman refused to trade hughes and kennedy for santana in the offseason.

As a Twins fan, I'm happy to agree with you on all counts here. I have no confidence in the Yankees pitching come playoff time, and I'm certainly glad Hughes/Kennedy/Cabrera weren't the Santana replacements (at the moment - the jury's going to be out for a while on what the Twins eventually got).

[BlueDevilJay]

Transferring my unbroken streak of disagreeing with everything bdj posts from the PPB over here ;), I too think this is a lopsided Yankee win:


Hey man, why fix something that ain't broke right? :) I still see the trade as even if anything, not in favor of the Yanks, but only time will truly tell. Some players when they move to another city, never regain the form that had in the previous one.

In other news, I'm still shaking my head that Manny is no longer a Red So(ck?)....I was one who really liked the guy (and am a Boston fan by the way, so Mal, we again find ourselves on opposite sides :D )

I promise though, I know ALOT more about sports than I do politics. Ill admit I don't know the ins and outs of everything that goes on in politics like it seems alot of you do, but I do know enough to know my views are justified, based on what I believe in.

Back to sports....Im beginning to wonder if either the Sox or Yankees will win the division....The Rays just are not fading like I thought they would in the 2nd half.

[dukie8]

this marte guy is a train wreck. he ever makes farnsworth look somewhat palpable.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

this marte guy is a train wreck. he ever makes farnsworth look somewhat palpable.

Don't know if he is a train wreck, but twice Mariano has come in after Marte started an inning getting two on base, and Mo has not held without letting runs score. Today was his first blown save of the year. <insert tongue in cheek> Fortunately, that "other" under-performer on the team (ARod) hit a game winning home run in the 12th inning to bail them out. <remove tongue from cheek>

[dukie8]

now that we are about a month into cashman's most recent re-arranging of the deck chairs of the titanic, i think that we all can agree that this trade was a complete waste of time for the yankees. acquiring the aging pudge for his offense has produced these robust numbers so far:

.208 ba, 5 runs, 1 hr and a whopping 1 rbi all in 48 bats

these stats make molina look like babe ruth. the pitchers supposedly like pitching to molina as well. there were so many other catchers out there with more offense. more importantly, it is pitching, not light hitting catchers, that are hurting the yankees. had they acquired harden instead, the yankees would be right in the thick of things (he has been deadly since jumping the fence to the nl).

[Olympic Fan]

now that we are about a month into cashman's most recent re-arranging of the deck chairs of the titanic, i think that we all can agree that this trade was a complete waste of time for the yankees. acquiring the aging pudge for his offense has produced these robust numbers so far:

.208 ba, 5 runs, 1 hr and a whopping 1 rbi all in 48 bats

these stats make molina look like babe ruth. the pitchers supposedly like pitching to molina as well. there were so many other catchers out there with more offense. more importantly, it is pitching, not light hitting catchers, that are hurting the yankees. had they acquired harden instead, the yankees would be right in the thick of things (he has been deadly since jumping the fence to the nl).

I totally agree ... it's not that it was such a terrible trade (I'm not crying about losing Farnsworth, although he WAS pitching effectively in the month or so leading up to the trade). The problem is that it was a nothing trade -- and not anything close to the steal that jim first implied.

I don't have the numbers, but just my impression since the deal its that the Yankees have a MUCH better record on the nights that Molina catches.

[DGood]

What do the Yankees and a Vacuum Cleaner have in common?